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New Everton Stadium

Glider buses from Belfast were talked about. It's a long bus but it looks like a tram.

Oh yeah, remember the talk of that now. Wasn't there some doubt about whether the city's roads are suitable?

The buses coming back under public control is great news for us though. Hopefully it means more buses, and if so, I'd imagine, new routes meaning not even having to tweak other services.

I also don't see a scenario where the local authority take back control and then proceed to sit on their thumbs and watch on whilst Everton struggle to get people to the ground because of public transport issues. Especially with the 'waters' scheme on the horizon.

 

Loads of people will be fine walking it. Just because it won't be for everybody, doesn't mean it's not a viable option for loads of people. Extremely disconnected from public transport? Not really. Sandhills is the same distance as Kirkdale is to Goodison and Great Howard Street etc already has provisions for buses. Services have used that route in/out of town before.
I didn't say it wouldn't be viable for loads of people, I said that it wouldn't be an option for the elderly and those with an impairment. You may not care about that but plenty do.

And the stadium is extremely disconnected from public transport. Sandhills is over 1km away, there are zero buses on Regent Rd and Gt Howard St barely has any. The current transport plan is indequate in my opinion and I find it offensive the word 'coralled' is used to manage football crowds in 2024.

@Tom Hughes has covered this in depth many times.
 
I didn't say it wouldn't be viable for loads of people, I said that it wouldn't be an option for the elderly and those with an impairment. You may not care about that but plenty do.

And the stadium is extremely disconnected from public transport. Sandhills is over 1km away, there are zero buses on Regent Rd and Gt Howard St barely has any. The current transport plan is indequate in my opinion and I find it offensive the word 'coralled' is used to manage football crowds in 2024.

@Tom Hughes has covered this in depth many times.

I know there's barely any bus services that don't use that route now. Routes will be tweaked. As I've said, there's existing services that have used that route previously in and out of town. It's good to go, barely any work needed - just send the buses down there...

You find it offensive that "a football crowd" is gonna have to queue to get in a station or be 'coralled' as you put it? The same sort of thing happens every year at stations for the Grand National. Is it okay for them but not football fans for some reason? It won't just be football fans getting 'coralled' anyway mate, it's called a queue, and non match going people will have to get in it too. Don't like it? Don't get in the queue, it's not the sort of crowd control you're trying to make out there.

Sandhills is just as viable as Kirkdale for many people in terms of distance, It's exactly the same as to Kirkdale from Goodison, and it's 0.6 miles closer than Bank Hall to Goodison, which many other people find viable.
 
I know there's barely any bus services that don't use that route now. Routes will be tweaked. As I've said, there's existing services that have used that route previously in and out of town. It's good to go, barely any work needed - just send the buses down there...

You find it offensive that "a football crowd" is gonna have to queue to get in a station or be 'coralled' as you put it? The same sort of thing happens every year at stations for the Grand National. Is it okay for them but not football fans for some reason? It won't just be football fans getting 'coralled' anyway mate, it's called a queue, and non match going people will have to get in it too. Don't like it? Don't get in the queue, it's not the sort of crowd control you're trying to make out there.

Sandhills is just as viable as Kirkdale for many people in terms of distance, It's exactly the same as to Kirkdale from Goodison, and it's 0.6 miles closer than Bank Hall to Goodison, which many other people find viable.

The point is, there is no mention of "tweaked" bus services in the transport strategy or any changes to it since. This could be for a number of reasons, perhaps because they (a) haven't thought of it (although it was suggested repeatedly during the consultation processes); (b) there isn't enough buses/drivers in the system to maintain existing route services and divert the required number or because; (c) when they've tried modelling diverting the buses into the immediate area with expected matchday traffic, it doesn't work. Or some combination thereof.

Yes, Sandhills is as close to BMD as Kirkdale is to access GP... but again, the point is, why do so few people use Merseyrail at present? Could it be because of that relative lack of convenience of that 1km walk? Could it be there are so few soccerbuses serving from Sandhills? Could it be that there are lots of bus services far closer to GP that are much more convenient and therefore only those people who live close to a Merseyrail station choose that mode of transport?

It's one thing parking your car say a kilometre away from the Goodison and walking to and from the ground. You know that when you're walking back to it after the match, you won't be expected to stand in the rain for an hr or more before you can get in it. Of course halving the parking catchment area by being on the waterfront, means that those parking distances will also increase, not withstanding more stringent residential parking restrictions.

Sandhills is reasonably close, although 500m would've been ideal, for both greater convenience and to still stagger the arrival of fans post match. However, the main point is that it currently can only accommodate 3k passengers per hr, because it is an island platform of limited space and outside access is also limited. They estimate that the new marshalling area and matchday staff can increase that to upto 6k per hr, which is far short of the total train capacity serving that station. So even if more people could be enticed to leave their cars at home, or park and ride to use the train, the capacity is limited by that accessibility.

I believe that there are solutions. Yes, some diverted buses to extend eastern and southern suburb bus routes. Also, originally there was going to be a new 2 platform train station at Vauxhall. This fell off the agenda as soon as the commonwealth games bid failed, and that obvious funding vehicle was lost. The Lime Line proposals for a trackless tram serving the whole waterfront and the city centre has also gone quiet in recent times (possibly superceded by the Glider proposals) . Hopefully both of these can be revived asap, to really drag BMD (and the whole Liverpool Waters and Ten Street schemes) into the city centre proper. That would be a game-changer for our new stadium. Only then, will they be able to achieve the 60:40 public to private transport ratio they say they need, to avoid gridlock and achieve a good dispersal time. Ideally, they should be trying to change people's matchday travel habits before they get established, ie when it opens.
 

Won't they just put on buses on matchdays until a permanent solution is in place? Doesn't sound very difficult to me unless I am missing something 🤷‍♂️

The transport plan mentions the number of shuttle buses doing 2 journeys each post match. The problem is, they only equate to approx 4k passengers split between services to the city centre and Bootle. That, plus the capacity of Sandhills and other local buses appears to be far short of the required 31k+ public transport requirements of that site. With the onus firmly placed on walking to reach those public transport seats in the city centre.
 
The transport plan mentions the number of shuttle buses doing 2 journeys each post match. The problem is, they only equate to approx 4k passengers split between services to the city centre and Bootle. That, plus the capacity of Sandhills and other local buses appears to be far short of the required 31k+ public transport requirements of that site. With the onus firmly placed on walking to reach those public transport seats in the city centre.
It's been 33 years since I last tweaked a bus route in Merseyside in anger, however a few issues around adjusting the existing trunk services on matchdays.
The commercial network where possible looks to optimise capacity. Full buses with people standing obviously earn more money. I realise this philosophy will change with the move to Merseytravel - sorry, Transport for the Liverpool City Region - control.

If you start diverting the existing routes along, say Scotland Road, then that will extend journey times of passengers going to town by around 10-15 minutes. Furthermore the buses leaving town which coincide with the after match traffic (i.e. departing town from 1800 onwards on a Saturday 1500 kick off) are likely to be fairly crowded already, and a driver could reasonably refuse to make the diversion on the basis that he'll face a scrum at BMD for maybe 5-6 passengers only, as well as inconveniencing the "regulars". It won't work.

If you simply re-route on matchdays, then you are cutting/reducing service to existing areas, and they will squeal (even if they never use the bus, they'll complain).

I think the solutions offered elsewhere make more sense - dedicated matchday buses to key transport nodes (e.g. Lime Street/ Central/Queen Square and Liverpool One).

Sandhills will be a nightmare and for those familiar with Chelsea away and the queuing at Fulham Broadway - bear in mind that they had trains every 3-4 minutes, and each train had a capacity of around 1,000 people. An 8 car 777 train has a capacity of 950 - so comparable, mainly thanks to a lot of standing space/wheelchair space / bicycle space and tip up seats - however only the Southport trains will regularly be 8 car.

I'm sure there will be a lot of adjustments and fine tuning once next season gets underway properly (test events won't really give this insight). Other factors such as weather etc. will also come into play.

For me though, the biggest "if only" is - what if there were still loads of pubs on Scottie Road and the Dock Road - would disperse the crowds wonderfully.
 
The transport plan mentions the number of shuttle buses doing 2 journeys each post match. The problem is, they only equate to approx 4k passengers split between services to the city centre and Bootle. That, plus the capacity of Sandhills and other local buses appears to be far short of the required 31k+ public transport requirements of that site. With the onus firmly placed on walking to reach those public transport seats in the city centre.
When I've visited the stadium I always get the bus along Scotland Road, get off at Athol Street and walk down Boundary street . Great view of the stadium and not very far, plus there always seems to be plenty of buses going along Scottie. The walk is downhill and easily done for me a 72yr old.
 
It's been 33 years since I last tweaked a bus route in Merseyside in anger, however a few issues around adjusting the existing trunk services on matchdays.
The commercial network where possible looks to optimise capacity. Full buses with people standing obviously earn more money. I realise this philosophy will change with the move to Merseytravel - sorry, Transport for the Liverpool City Region - control.

If you start diverting the existing routes along, say Scotland Road, then that will extend journey times of passengers going to town by around 10-15 minutes. Furthermore the buses leaving town which coincide with the after match traffic (i.e. departing town from 1800 onwards on a Saturday 1500 kick off) are likely to be fairly crowded already, and a driver could reasonably refuse to make the diversion on the basis that he'll face a scrum at BMD for maybe 5-6 passengers only, as well as inconveniencing the "regulars". It won't work.

If you simply re-route on matchdays, then you are cutting/reducing service to existing areas, and they will squeal (even if they never use the bus, they'll complain).

I think the solutions offered elsewhere make more sense - dedicated matchday buses to key transport nodes (e.g. Lime Street/ Central/Queen Square and Liverpool One).

Sandhills will be a nightmare and for those familiar with Chelsea away and the queuing at Fulham Broadway - bear in mind that they had trains every 3-4 minutes, and each train had a capacity of around 1,000 people. An 8 car 777 train has a capacity of 950 - so comparable, mainly thanks to a lot of standing space/wheelchair space / bicycle space and tip up seats - however only the Southport trains will regularly be 8 car.

I'm sure there will be a lot of adjustments and fine tuning once next season gets underway properly (test events won't really give this insight). Other factors such as weather etc. will also come into play.

For me though, the biggest "if only" is - what if there were still loads of pubs on Scottie Road and the Dock Road - would disperse the crowds wonderfully.

Precisely. "Tweaking" isn't easy. Both in terms of the effects on the existing services, and if or not there is enough available road space to accommodate them in the first place. The problem with all the shuttles going all the way to the main hubs in the city centre is that without proper priority measures, the turnaround times are quite poor. Shorter shuttles to say edge of town or say Tithebarn st.... could possible half that time and double that capacity. If there was room in the bus timetable and road space to have say 1 in 10 eastern/southern bus routes extended to Stanley Dock (using prioritised lanes). Then that could greatly boost the shuttle bus capacity numbers and provide a direct service for some of those outside the northern line catchment.

Yes, there were probably more pubs on Scotland Rd, Stanley Rd, Vauxhall Rd, Grt Howard St and the Dock Rd combined than in most city centres in the UK. Just 10yrs ago, there were probably more than double what there are now. Maybe some will be revived.
 

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