Pre-Season

[steken1]

I want our best eleven on the pitch and it isn't happening. Ross Barkley started two league games all season and came off the bench in four more. Meanwhile Cahill stinks the place out all year and plays 35 league games.

Meanwhile players younger then Ross are starting at Arsenal, Man U and Chelsea. Why? Because those managers have balls and ours doesn't.

And it's like that all over the pitch. Hibbert and Nevile both started the year in terrible form but Coleman never got a chance there. Osman plays fantasically in the hole and then gets kicked out to the wing the very next match. Vellios scores three goals and then gets sent into coventry in favor of Saha who is awful.

What players younger than Ross play regular at any of those sides?

 

[pbeyer]

I want our best eleven on the pitch and it isn't happening. Ross Barkley started two league games all season and came off the bench in four more. Meanwhile Cahill stinks the place out all year and plays 35 league games.

Meanwhile players younger then Ross are starting at Arsenal, Man U and Chelsea. Why? Because those managers have balls and ours doesn't.

And it's like that all over the pitch. Hibbert and Nevile both started the year in terrible form but Coleman never got a chance there. Osman plays fantasically in the hole and then gets kicked out to the wing the very next match. Vellios scores three goals and then gets sent into coventry in favor of Saha who is awful.

I'm right there with you on the frsutrations with not seeing Ross as much this season as we would all like. I think he didn't play as much cause if he spent his time developing in the limelight, Moyes knows he'll be picked right out from our squad off to a "bigger" team. Does that make it a good decision for the short term? Maybe not. Will it pay off in the long term? Guess we'll have to wait and see. Hope it does, otherwise people will be even more upset they didn't see him this year.

As for Vellios, I'm pretty sure I've seen in a thread here from an ITK that his attitude is poor and he doesn't train hard. If that is the case, I don't want him thinking the attitude that he is bigger than the team or the club is acceptable. He is still very young, he needs a bit of time to mature his attitude and his ability.

The Osman and Cahill debacle is something I'll never understand. We can both agree on that one I think.

 

[Allezfan]

Realism means accepting that not one single young player that has been on the fringes of our side has broken through elsewhere and proved Moyes wrong in not picking them.

Well, Rooney did. But there's also a chicken and egg thing, where if they're not developed properly here they won't be good enough to go elsewhere. Arsenal produce loads of footbalelrs good enough for top level football, some they play and some they sell. We don't and you've got to look at the manager for that.

 

[ToffeeBlueNose]

 

[Extratime]

And then we nearly beat our neighbors to 4th again two years later. If we'd sacked moyes after we'd finished 17th in 2004 and we talked about hiring a manger who could finish 5th or 4th you'd say it'd be impossible. But it wasn't.

You're not a realist mate, you're a pessimist.

I am a realist. You thinking we could hire a manager that could get us to 5th or 4th is the next year is pure fantasy. Whose to say that would even happen? It's just theory with no basis in reality, just what you THINK. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

Here's another one. After sacking Moyes we could have gotten relegated. See how easy it is to make stuff up? It's like magic, I just think it and it COULD happen.

 

[Allezfan]

I am a realist. You thinking we could hire a manager that could get us to 5th or 4th is the next year is pure fantasy. Whose to say that would even happen? It's just theory with no basis in reality, just what you THINK. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

Here's another one. After sacking Moyes we could have gotten relegated. See how easy it is to make stuff up? It's like magic, I just think it and it COULD happen.

You're saying 4th and 5th is impossible for a club with these finances despite the fact it was achieved only five years ago.

I'm saying Moyes isn't getting the most out of our resources and another manager could.

 

[Allezfan]

What players younger than Ross play regular at any of those sides?

Just the Ox actually. Mea Culpa on that one. All the examples I was thinking of are actually a year or two older.

 

[Brennan]

You're saying 4th and 5th is impossible for a club with these finances despite the fact it was achieved only five years ago.

I'm saying Moyes isn't getting the most out of our resources and another manager could.

Oh come on, you're being ridiculous now. Expecting any manager to get the current team we have to 4th place is absolutely ludicrous. The game has moved on massively in the seven (not five) years since we last did it, and even then it was considered to be a massive bit of luck with us holding on for our dear lives.

I don't love Moyes but acting as if another manager could come in and take the team we have to the Champions League is just mad, completely and utterly.

 

[Allezfan]

Oh come on, you're being ridiculous now. Expecting any manager to get the current team we have to 4th place is absolutely ludicrous. The game has moved on massively in the seven (not five) years since we last did it, and even then it was considered to be a massive bit of luck with us holding on for our dear lives.

I don't love Moyes but acting as if another manager could come in and take the team we have to the Champions League is just mad, completely and utterly.

It's only 3 since we finished 5th isn't it, and 7 since we finished 4th. I was averaging it.

Anyway like I said earlier what I want from a new manager is a) have us turn up in Derbies, b ) have us turn up in cups (our record in cups under Moyes is a one of underacheivment) c) play decent, watchable, attacking, entertaining football d) turn up before christmas, e) not fall out with and banish our best players and f) play the kids if they're good enough. I don't need champions league football to make me happier then I am with Moyes.

 

[Brownie]

The main reason you see young players used more frequently at the top clubs is because they can be carried. If you're good enough to beat someone by three or four with your normal side, it's not really going to make much difference if you put in a promising youngster. They can play with freedom because they know that even if they play poorly, the players around them are better enough than the opposition to make up for it. When you're a side that gets its wins in tight games, usually by the odd goal, one mistake can cost you the game. As much as we all like to see players coming through, fundamental mistakes really do tend to come more from inexperienced players. Hence for the big games, where the managers know it's going to be close, even the top teams nearly always side with the older, more experienced players. Unfortunately it's like that for us almost every game.

 

[ToffeeBlueNose]

The main reason you see young players used more frequently at the top clubs is because they can be carried. If you're good enough to beat someone by three or four with your normal side, it's not really going to make much difference if you put in a promising youngster. They can play with freedom because they know that even if they play poorly, the players around them are better enough than the opposition to make up for it. When you're a side that gets its wins in tight games, usually by the odd goal, one mistake can cost you the game. As much as we all like to see players coming through, fundamental mistakes really do tend to come more from inexperienced players. Hence for the big games, where the managers know it's going to be close, even the top teams nearly always side with the older, more experienced players. Unfortunately it's like that for us almost every game.

nonesense utter utter nonesense. any player can make a mistake whatever age and they do regularly (distin semi cough cough)

 

[steken1]

Well, Rooney did. But there's also a chicken and egg thing, where if they're not developed properly here they won't be good enough to go elsewhere. Arsenal produce loads of footbalelrs good enough for top level football, some they play and some they sell. We don't and you've got to look at the manager for that.

I doubt Moyes actually wanted to sell the best player of his generation mate, even you know that.

I believe if a player is good enough then they will find their level. Loads said give Forshaw a go, but look where he's gone. He may come back and haunt us but I doubt it. Not one young player like Kissock, Forshaw, Clarke and all the others has ever came back and proved Moyes judgement wrong, ever.

I think he's a bit conservative especially with Ross, but that doessn't apply to many.

BTW, Arsenal don't produce that many top level footballers, they buy them young from clubs that can't fend them off because of the money their academy has. It has it's own budget for signings that dwarfs what we spend on our first team, over the past three years anyway.

 

[steken1]

Just the Ox actually. Mea Culpa on that one. All the examples I was thinking of are actually a year or two older.

He doesn't play regular either. Arsenal fans have been moaning about that, like us with Ross. I find it hard to accept that Wenger doesn't know what's best for a players development myself given his history.

 

[Brennan]

nonesense utter utter nonesense. any player can make a mistake whatever age and they do regularly (distin semi cough cough)

So you're saying that younger inexperienced players aren't more likely to make big mistakes than older more experienced ones ? Because i'm pretty sure that statement from Brownz is perfectly fair and legitimate. He's not saying older players don't make mistakes.

 

[ToffeeBlueNose]

So you're saying that younger inexperienced players aren't more likely to make big mistakes than older more experienced ones ? Because i'm pretty sure that statement from Brownz is perfectly fair and legitimate. He's not saying older players don't make mistakes.

no mate i'm saying that big name world class players make mistakes. you don't know where and you don't know when but they happen and can be very costly. to say a majority of gaffs are caused by young inexperienced players is laughable.