Project restart discussion.

[catcherintherye]

@catcherintherye

Fine words and sentiments mate, but a pools panel of soothsayers Nostradamus, mystic meg etc couldn't have forseen the last 8 months...and how it would all pan out in the various European Countries and Leagues?
And I seriously doubt that the PL would have the wit to think of one of your fine suggestions - let alone the will to carry it or them out

Thanks mate.

Unfortunately you have people on huge salaries within football stealing a living and refusing to take the necessary big and at times unpopular decsions. Nothing I say is groundbreaking, or particularly complex. It's just common sense for the majority of people.

 

[number4.]

Of course you can. What happened in the Scottish season, or Dutch season, or Belgiu season, or football season in 1939/40. Not only can you, but it has regularly happened.

I think if we are all honest, it would be a more integrity driven way that having a new season circus, with different players, months after the previous one had ended. There was no intregrity in that. None whatsoever.

I completely agree & as you pointed out in another thread there is a fair argument that this new season is already gone from an Integrity point of view.

But I stand by my point, there was always too much money greed & ego at stake for it not to get completed last season (SPL, Dutch leagues dont have that luxury) & I took a ton of stick on here for not jumping on the null and void train; it will be the same this season, irrespective of delays, they will keep the show on the road

 

[catcherintherye]

I completely agree & as you pointed out in another thread there is a fair argument that this new season is already gone from an Integrity point of view.

But I stand by my point, there was always too much money greed & ego at stake for it not to get completed last season (SPL, Dutch leagues dont have that luxury) & I took a ton of stick on here for not jumping on the null and void train; it will be the same this season, irrespective of delays, they will keep the show on the road

But the point is, we didn't need to let money and greed blindsight us from what were immoral, illogical and ultimately short sighted decisions. If this season cannot be finished by May it will have proven to be a terrible decision and will have validated my concerns completely. It didn't have to be this way, the powers that be chose for it to be so, so they carry the can.

 

[number4.]

But the point is, we didn't need to let money and greed blindsight us from what were immoral, illogical and ultimately short sighted decisions. If this season cannot be finished by May it will have proven to be a terrible decision and will have validated my concerns completely. It didn't have to be this way, the powers that be chose for it to be so, so they carry the can.

but there two different debates. You're completely right that is what should have happened; my point was always (and still is) what should happen and what will happen are million miles away from each other & this will remain.

With zero flex in the calendar this year, realistically it is impossible to see the season finishing pre Euros & if we are being honest, the Euro's have to be in significant doubt already as well.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Now Everton are actually playing well and my eyes no longer bleed watching us - the show MUST go on

 

[catcherintherye]

but there two different debates. You're completely right that is what should have happened; my point was always (and still is) what should happen and what will happen are million miles away from each other & this will remain.

With zero flex in the calendar this year, realistically it is impossible to see the season finishing pre Euros & if we are being honest, the Euro's have to be in significant doubt already as well.

But the gap between what should happen, and what will happen is down to poor decisions. We are in the position we are in due to short sighted decisions. People were warned, and it is worth remembering.

The powers that be chose the course of action they took. They didn't have too.

 

[number4.]

But the gap between what should happen, and what will happen is down to poor decisions. We are in the position we are in due to short sighted decisions. People were warned, and it is worth remembering.

The powers that be chose the course of action they took. They didn't have too.

I guess it's the motivation for those experiences. You and I both know last year's season was as good as null and void and this year & this season is arguably shot as well now, but if I don't think the owners of Burnley for example give a toss about the legitimacy of anything other than their balance sheet & hence we will continue in this cycle.

The flipside however (IMHO) is pausing football till we are back to the old normal is not appetising either, realistically that could be 2023/2024 before we got going again, which doesnt work either.

 

[catcherintherye]

I guess it's the motivation for those experiences. You and I both know last year's season was as good as null and void and this year & this season is arguably shot as well now, but if I don't think the owners of Burnley for example give a toss about the legitimacy of anything other than their balance sheet & hence we will continue in this cycle.

The flipside however (IMHO) is pausing football till we are back to the old normal is not appetising either, realistically that could be 2023/2024 before we got going again, which doesnt work either.

The point (which I've made consistently) is that they should have prioritised giving this season every chance to finish. Prioritise the whole season, over a small portion of a season. We can't afford a 2nd season to be ruined. We could have played 20-25 games by now, and had space for a big break if it came.

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

Yeah fair enough - my only point on this is you can't start a new season without completing the previous one. This is ultimately what killed the null and void debate and will do the same this time around should there be significant downtime

100%. Maintaining the integrity of the competition is what FIFA came out with (granted they were stating the obvious), and that killed any voiding hope/debate. The Karen Brady’s of this world were thinking of their own financial interests. Sporting integrity doesn’t enter her head. Football is rather unique (certainly to most other sports) in that results from one year has a direct bearing on the next. It’s not like US sports where each season is isolated, ie.no relegation, promotion, European places etc. So voiding one domestic season corrupts the next, and the next, and the next etc.

On a broader point. While the Chinese virus is around we cannot plan too far ahead (that goes for any industry). It’s too unpredictable. We basically have to play it by ear. Adjust plans accordingly. Looking a couple of months ahead is naive.

 

[number4.]

The point (which I've made consistently) is that they should have prioritised giving this season every chance to finish. Prioritise the whole season, over a small portion of a season. We can't afford a 2nd season to be ruined. We could have played 20-25 games by now, and had space for a big break if it came.

What we can definitely agree on is your consistency, from day one you said get next season started ASAP - if we look back on it now, the new season wouldn't have started any earlier than original date of 3rd August I think given the timelines which were rushed to get last season over the line, meaning at best we would be 5 games ahead of where we are now.

I still think there is a valid argument that if that powers that be had opted for your solution, we would still be watch SSN outside the high court without a football kicked, bearing in mind you could have ended up with a scenario that West Ham were relegated on PPG.

 

[catcherintherye]

What we can definitely agree on is your consistency, from day one you said get next season started ASAP - if we look back on it now, the new season wouldn't have started any earlier than original date of 3rd August I think given the timelines which were rushed to get last season over the line, meaning at best we would be 5 games ahead of where we are now.

I still think there is a valid argument that if that powers that be had opted for your solution, we would still be watch SSN outside the high court without a football kicked, bearing in mind you could have ended up with a scenario that West Ham were relegated on PPG.

You are making a number of assumptions here.

Firstly, in the exceptional circustances we had, we could very fesibly have started when we started last season- Mid June. Approximately 3 months later, atb 2 games per week gives us around 25 games. Take out a few games for churn/internationals and we could have been at 20 games in. I think the "we could only start on August 3rd" is an understandable response, but is sort of symptomatic of the quite narrow minded, not out of the box, cautious and conservative thinking that we really needed to avoid.

On the 2nd point, there is to me no credible evidence legal action would have followed. To my knowledge there has been no legal action, never mind successful legal action from any sporting league that was voided and cancelled. There is no legal basis for it.

On the 3rd point, I am not sure West Ham would have been relegated on PPG. It would have not used PPG to decide relegation. The season was not completed, so would have just been voided and cancelled, consistent wth previous protocol. Very easy to do, no legal difficulties and a clean solution.

It's fine to say that wasn't a preferred option. I do understand that, however there were consequences for what they have done, and those who championed playing almost a 2nd mini season months and months after the 1st was ended and thus disrupting this season should at least have the integrity to own the mistakes they have made.

 

[number4.]

You are making a number of assumptions here.

Firstly, in the exceptional circustances we had, we could very fesibly have started when we started last season- Mid June. Approximately 3 months later, atb 2 games per week gives us around 25 games. Take out a few games for churn/internationals and we could have been at 20 games in. I think the "we could only start on August 3rd" is an understandable response, but is sort of symptomatic of the quite narrow minded, not out of the box, cautious and conservative thinking that we really needed to avoid.

On the 2nd point, there is to me no credible evidence legal action would have followed. To my knowledge there has been no legal action, never mind successful legal action from any sporting league that was voided and cancelled. There is no legal basis for it.

On the 3rd point, I am not sure West Ham would have been relegated on PPG. It would have not used PPG to decide relegation. The season was not completed, so would have just been voided and cancelled, consistent wth previous protocol. Very easy to do, no legal difficulties and a clean solution.

It's fine to say that wasn't a preferred option. I do understand that, however there were consequences for what they have done, and those who championed playing almost a 2nd mini season months and months after the 1st was ended and thus disrupting this season should at least have the integrity to own the mistakes they have made.

point 1 - Seems fanciful that the start date could have been brought forward pre Aug 3rd, if it was surely the question would have been finish last season

2 - Sheff united V west ham for example; seems inevitable (to me) that the losers either in the championship or relegation would have at least attempted legal action. I used West ham as example as I thought they would be the most likely candidates to go to court.

3 - West ham could (not would) have been relegated. If it was PPG home and away they would have gone down, straight PPG would have kept them up. Not assuming PPG was inevitable, but certainly a consideration.

 

[catcherintherye]

point 1 - Seems fanciful that the start date could have been brought forward pre Aug 3rd, if it was surely the question would have been finish last season

2 - Sheff united V west ham for example; seems inevitable (to me) that the losers either in the championship or relegation would have at least attempted legal action. I used West ham as example as I thought they would be the most likely candidates to go to court.

3 - West ham could (not would) have been relegated. If it was PPG home and away they would have gone down, straight PPG would have kept them up. Not assuming PPG was inevitable, but certainly a consideration.

1- In a conventional reading, it's certainly a problem. However if the league had been decisive early on, explained the rational for why and built a consensus around it, there would have been almst universal support.

2- I think you are confusing West Ham with Aston Villa mate.

3- As I have said, you eliminate questions around PPG by just not using PPG. Voiding the season and repeating would have been the optimal solution. I am not too bogged down on this part though, my key point is starting games earlier, and getting as much of this season done as possible, pre empting a second potential lockdown, would have been very sensible. Ultimately just far too sensible for the idiots running the PL.

 

[number4.]

1- In a conventional reading, it's certainly a problem. However if the league had been decisive early on, explained the rational for why and built a consensus around it, there would have been almst universal support.

2- I think you are confusing West Ham with Aston Villa mate.

3- As I have said, you eliminate questions around PPG by just not using PPG. Voiding the season and repeating would have been the optimal solution. I am not too bogged down on this part though, my key point is starting games earlier, and getting as much of this season done as possible, pre empting a second potential lockdown, would have been very sensible. Ultimately just far too sensible for the idiots running the PL.

1) You know I love our debates, but I think you are rewriting history here. It was never an option to be more decisive. Football in the UK came back as quickly as it could irrespective of what season was being played.

2) no I'm not confused, referring to the tevez case

3) Void just moved the problem, leeds / WBA could have gone to court, possibly an injunction delaying the start.

Anyway - no point in debating this much further, I think we both agree with was a glorified void season & this one similar if we are all being honest. Hopefully normality for 21/22 to I very very much doubt it

 

[catcherintherye]

1) You know I love our debates, but I think you are rewriting history here. It was never an option to be more decisive. Football in the UK came back as quickly as it could irrespective of what season was being played.

2) no I'm not confused, referring to the tevez case

3) Void just moved the problem, leeds / WBA could have gone to court, possibly an injunction delaying the start.

Anyway - no point in debating this much further, I think we both agree with was a glorified void season & this one similar if we are all being honest. Hopefully normality for 21/22 to I very very much doubt it

Of course they could. I have outlined a scenario earlier on today what that would have looked like. They chose not too. Which is good for them, but they had the option.

2- I am really not sure what relevance the Tevez case, about 15 years ago would have to do with what I'm suggesting. It also didn't prevent a season starting. Just to be clear though, when I said no legal action, I meant no legal action for leagues that ended and voided results.

3- There would always have been a problem. It would have been a price worth paying (in my view). I find it highly unlikely they sue, and almost impossible it would have led to an injunction. In fact I would say that falls essentially into the category impossible. They didn't fulfil the criteria to be promoted at that point.

The PL chose to prioritise largely unfounded and unnecessary concerns over safegarding the game. If that backfires this season, it's squarely on them I'm afraid. They were given ample warning from the likes of me.