2021/22 Rafael Benitez

[windymiller]

If you want to make it relevant then that QPR result wasn't on the back of a run of poor performances. We beat Norwich at home and drew with United following QPR.

We lost to Villa before QPR which when you put the stat spin on it, from the opening day of the season until the QPR game we won 4 out of 7. Drew 1. Lost 2. That's not poor form by any stretch.

The cracks appear by West Ham (even though we played very well and were probably a Calvert Lewin being fit from getting a result) but mainly the Watford game.

So taking or leaving a cup game that we lost on penalties says nothing about how poor we've been since you're talking another 3 games later.

Nobody was saying we were in a poor run of form when we had won 4 out of 7, I'm not sure what point you are trying to prove there. But the fact remains that if our most recent nine games has resulted in one win, that's not good. There are, of course, some mitigating factors but the longer we go without a win the less defensible those factors become. Eventually the man in charge of the playing side of the club has to make a positive change to our situation and if he doesn't, the longer the run continues, the more reasonable it becomes for for people to ask if that change will ever come. I don't think this is a very controversial stance, tbh.

 

[windymiller]

Everton now...

Nope, that guy has some fight left in him.

 

[windymiller]

We need a manager for a good 2-3 seasons to actually build a squad and see where we go from there imo.

I don't disagree with this basic principle but why this manager? Why have you not adopted this policy with any of our other recent managers? Why have you waited for possibly the most controversial appointment before making this stand? It's weird.

 

[billyblue80]

But you don't just throw in a player who's not played in 2 years and ask him to do that role mate, this isn't FIFA.

So, you have to change the shape. Had the recruitment team, and the finances, worked as they should have done in the summer we'd have got a midfielder in who could fill in but we didn't.

The manager, any manager, should know what works and what won't work if fans like you and I know it won't work mate. Why's he getting paid whatever he's on if he can't see that Davies isn't going to replace Doucoure or that Gbamin might need a bit more help in there to start off with?

It's simple, simple stuff.

Totally agree we HAD to switch to a three all he has done is get Townsend to tuck in but he is just a runner there.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

I don't disagree with this basic principle but why this manager? Why have you not adopted this policy with any of our other recent managers? Why have you waited for possibly the most controversial appointment before making this stand? It's weird.

Blue Kopite, if we are being generous ?

 

[Terrarian]

 

[kenada_blue]

You play him but you realise you need to add protection in? It's simple mate it really is.

You're spot on, he has to play or we won't know. But you don't just lump a player into a PL midfield for the first time in two years and put him next to Allan and say 'do what our most important player does'.

So you have to change shape, because that's the options we have. The only midfielder we have in the squad who makes a two work, right now, is Doucoure. That means that if he is out, we have to change shape. That needs amending by going out and getting a new player in, but in the meantime you have to be flexible with the system.

I agree with you. But it's 12 games in, he's still got to figure out who can do what not just change a system to fit 1 player for example.

It'll take time. Cant just change a system after 1 training session and expect it to work. There's plenty of times you've seen a match where that happened. Carlo was doing it a lot when injuries kicked in (Davies and Iwobi as wingbacks ffs).

This isn't surprising to me. He'll find out who the frauds are, who he can trust, and we'll get over a slump. It's another reset.

 

[Marius57]

As @Tubey as already mentioned, we don't have the squad to cover a significant injury and completely missing how it changes our set up.

The RS never change their set up and have players that come in to continue it. You're also comparing the RS squad with ours which is silly.

I know they had injuries but their key long term one was VVD as it took them out of the title defence, not turning them a bad side.

From their CB issues, they had players back throughout the side to fill in the void to the system. Had enough in midfield to dominate games that having Rhys Williams and Nat Philips at CB could go to Old Trafford and win 4.2 for example.

Wijnaldum, Henderson, Keita, Fabinho, Milner all did the same job. Doucoure, Allan, Davies, Gomes, Delph, Gbamin are all completely different for us so when one of them gets injured, our system has to change to work.

If you're point is "Klopp gets more out of the players he has" the counter point is...Rafael is. They're just not good enough to replace injuries. Your "we have 3 strikers on the bench" arent on Doms level, Richy isn't Dom either so it changes the system. Davies isn't Doucoure.

But I haven't compared our squads. I was pointing out that your claim they had 1 injury of vvd. That's distinctly not true and I've evidenced it. I've then pointed out we have 1 defender injured and 1 striker. Our back 4 shouldn't be so abject when only 1 players is missing. They look like they don't don't know each other. It's a shambles.

The fact you think benitez is getting the most out of the players shows there's no point even talking about it with you. Benitez didn't even get off his seat on Sunday to instruct or motivate the players. They literally stood 3 yards off their men. I've seen worse teams than that put in a performance before. Even just show some desire. They aren't even doing that so he clearly isn't getting the best out of them.

We have a crap board, a crap owner, a crap dof, crap medical team, several crap players (but all of them we have played this season would get into a Premier league team), but all of that doesn't excuse the manager of any blame or criticism at all.

Yesterday I got told that even when a player has been available, and played in a match, it doesn't count as him being available because he was returning from injury.

Also that we have 2 CBs injured 4 CMs injured and 2 CFs injured. When I pointed out we don't, they said, but they have been and are recently back (2 months ago and 5 games ago etc, so.not sure how what recently means).

And this is the issue, yes we have injuries, but posters are repeatedly and purposefully trying to make it sound worse than it is, to absolve benitez of any blame whatsoever. Yet the football.is abject. It wasn't even good football when we had a full squad, we just had spells where we looked good and need individual blammos to get us through and pick us up

 

[Zatara]

Richarlison has been missing a fair chunk of the season.

To visualise it, here's what's missing for Brentford, and a large chunk has been missing for a while now.

View attachment 146678



That's literally our first choice midfield and attack. I've deliberately left off Gomes, Davies and Holgate just to make that point, but even then you have to consider they still have a role and it'd mean Simms, Branthwaite and Onyango weren't clogging up the bench years before they're ready, if they ever will be.

Your point that we don't have a defensive crisis is a misnomer. Setting aside Mina being our best centre half, the problem is our midfield and attack are now so abject that we can't get up the pitch. Not won't, can't. Rondon has been a dud and is finished and even when Richarlison has played he can't play up front on his own and has proven it over and over again. So the ball keeps coming back at us. Defending is a team game just as attacking is - you can't get your full backs flying up the wings if you're relying on the Iwobis of this world plugging gaps, as you get exposed.

We simply can't cope with those losses - we're not Man City. There's no Mahrez etc. to replace a De Bruyne, so the drop off is minimal; no, we go from Doucoure to Tom Davies, from Gray to Iwobi. It's can't be glossed over and explained away; the truth is obvious - no manager in world football could get consistent results with what we have available.

Could another manager be on, I dunno, three or four more points now? Maybe, but they'd be working absolute miracles to do so. And that's why I don't get the Benitez abuse, or rather I do get it but I find it bloody ridiculous.

You seriously think we can field a three man midfield?

Here's why we can't. And just to remind you, Delph has only just come back and can only do an hour.

View attachment 146683

Dont you find it a stretch to include Gray as a right winger when hes been playing the same position as Richarlison or Sigurdsson in the line up you posted?

The 2nd picture, you have Gbamin crossed out when the manager felt he was fit enough to start a match without giving him ANY easing in period.

Onyango is supposedly the closest player in the squad to Doucoure...i cant see him in your pictures.

 

[Zatara]

But this is what I worry about. Benitez doesn’t do pressing, so we aren’t gonna be a pressing team. He doesn’t want the team to have the ball, so he tries to get them to keep their shape. They do that, but as we’ve seen time and again this season there’s no pressure on the ball. I can buy that it’s the players but it’s been pretty much every game bar 1/2 moments. I’m not talking about Klopp’s press, but there’s not even any basic semblance of a plan. They just sit off 5 yards away and teams now are more than capable of playing through that.

I’m not demanding Benitez change his system to suit these players. I’m saying his system is awful

He literally said that he knows what Evertonians want in a style of play.

Tell you what, i dont want to see our players standing 3-5 yards off their opponents.

Its like watching a non-contact sport.

He’s been in and out - he’s never been great defensively and that was Benitez’s concern. Plus we just didn’t have the cash once Inter came in

I’d say someone who can’t get into this Inter team would probably still walk into our team, though mate. They’d batter us

My general point was, whether we have £1.7m or £170m to spend in a window, Benitez is getting the final say

I was just curious really. I don't often catch Inter live, and I'd noticed that I see Darmian playing a lot in the highlights.

Dumfries has been the definition of a flop at Inter.

Not Rondon level but so much so that the media are linking Dumfries with a loan move away already.

 

[kenada_blue]

Nobody was saying we were in a poor run of form when we had won 4 out of 7, I'm not sure what point you are trying to prove there. But the fact remains that if our most recent nine games has resulted in one win, that's not good. There are, of course, some mitigating factors but the longer we go without a win the less defensible those factors become. Eventually the man in charge of the playing side of the club has to make a positive change to our situation and if he doesn't, the longer the run continues, the more reasonable it becomes for for people to ask if that change will ever come. I don't think this is a very controversial stance, tbh.

It's a slump in form due to injuries. Happened to Carlo. Happening now.

My point was to take the mick about throwing around "1 in 9" stats to create a panic when you can easily change whatever stats to suit an agenda.

Out of the losses only 2 concerned me - Villa and Watford. But then this squad is capable of those results as seen in the past. The other is the ineptitude on defending set pieces.

Other than that...it's a big shrug and we'll be fine when we get players back

 

[kenada_blue]

But I haven't compared our squads. I was pointing out that your claim they had 1 injury of vvd. That's distinctly not true and I've evidenced it. I've then pointed out we have 1 defender injured and 1 striker. Our back 4 shouldn't be so abject when only 1 players is missing. They look like they don't don't know each other.

The fact you think benitez is getting the most out of the players shows there's no point even talking about it with you. Benitez didn't even get off his seat on Sunday to instruct or motivate the players. They literally stood 3 yards off their men. I've seen worse teams than that put in a performance before. Even just show some desire. They aren't even doing that so he clearly isn't getting the best out of them.

I said VVD was a key injury. I didn't say it was their 1 injury. We have 3 key players out (Mina, Doucs, Dom), 4 when Richarlison was out. The RS coped very well as their spine wasn't 100% wrecked all season as they had key players still fit and winning them games.

And what do you want our manager to do mate? Be one of those shouty bouncy ones telling them to get "stuck in" while City score worldies? We're on our 5th manager in 6 years with a core of the same players. But let's get Simeone in to get better results out a squad that isn't good

 

[Zatara]

Why not play Gbamin if he's fit? He's the closest to Doucoure who was missing in the Watford game and it showed, so keep the same shape and try him out. It's wasn't like Davies ripped it up in that last game either. He soon took him off, saw the error, and hasn't looked like playing him since.

It's not all surprising that a new manager will try to fit players into their system to see it works. It's called finding your team and was always going to be an issue.

For every game that if works, there'll be ones that don't. Happened to Carlo. The next step would be to find the players that do.

Or just fire the manager and expect something different to happen.

Two questions:

1: If a player is coming back from a 2 year injury hell do you;

A: Ease him into the team
B: Start him with protection around him
C: Start him in a midfield two


2: If a young player has similar characteristics to your key midfielder do you:

A: Give him 10-15mins in a couple of games to get up to speed

B: Give him 5 mins


Seems like the subs have been preplanned for a long time unless theres an injury where he makes a stupid sub.

 

[kenada_blue]

Two questions:

1: If a player is coming back from a 2 year injury hell do you;

A: Ease him into the team
B: Start him with protection around him
C: Start him in a midfield two


2: If a young player has similar characteristics to your key midfielder do you:

A: Give him 10-15mins in a couple of games to get up to speed

B: Give him 5 mins


Seems like the subs have been preplanned for a long time unless theres an injury where he makes a stupid sub.

More ways to skin a cat. There's plenty of things to do, the manager made one and it didn't work.

I bet no one said when they saw Gbamin start against Wolves "Oooh I hope we protect him". No, he was fit and signed off ready to play after 2 years of not being in that position.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing to turn round and then go "Onyango should've started" having seen him play 0 senior minutes though and think he'd make an impact.

 

[Marius57]

I said VVD was a key injury. I didn't say it was their 1 injury. We have 3 key players out (Mina, Doucs, Dom), 4 when Richarlison was out. The RS coped very well as their spine wasn't 100% wrecked all season as they had key players still fit and winning them games.

And what do you want our manager to do mate? Be one of those shouty bouncy ones telling them to get "stuck in" while City score worldies? We're on our 5th manager in 6 years with a core of the same players. But let's get Simeone in to get better results out a squad that isn't good

Not quite. You literally said:
Van Dijke got crocked and their season crumbled. 1 major player.

That's you suggesting 1 injury ripped them apart. I mean, even claiming 1 major player if that's your argument still isn't correct as I've said. Matip, Gomez, Henderson, fabinho, keita, thiago all had significant injuries for them. Or aside from their strikers, is only vvd important for them?

Why would that mean I want a bouncy manager. I want a manager that even on difficult games, will instruct and try to motivate the players. Instead, he sat slumped in his chair and did nothing from the first whistle. He conceded that game before he even came out the tunnel. Doesn't matter the opposition, at least give it a go.