2021/22 Rafael Benitez

[catcherintherye]

Winning doesn’t happen by accident.

Moyes went to the reigning champions and crashed and burned.

I’m afraid you don’t win that many trophies without considerable expertise. I know people dont want him here, but the deconstruction of his achievements in an attempt to invalidate them is ridiculous.

He took his chances. Moyes didn’t. Dyche will never get that opportunity because he isn’t up to it. He is another Sam Allardyce.

Benitez is another Sam Allardyce now. He does the same job Sam Allardyce does. But he has a better PR machine.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

Hold on mate, some of this is complete nonsense.

The crisis I refer to, is being in the bottom 6 in the league, getting little over a point a game. The previous manager, had us within 8 points of the CL, 31 points clear of the relegation zone (about as far away from it as we have been in my lifetime). So relatively speaking, the teams performance of which he is accountable has put us into crisis. Injuries are no excuse either, we had far worse injuries last season, and got to 59 points. Thats the baseline for his performance, which has really plummeted.

I am not sure what "incompetence" you refer to, perhaps you could give some details? Our injury record has been poor under him, no? Or do other people get the blame even when he is in charge?

As for Digne, I have no idea if he's spat his dummy out and won't get drawn on idle speculation. The reality is though, it's the mangers job to ensure players don't spit their dummies out, so if he has, that is on Benitez too. I have given him the benefit of the doubt on that, as I'm not sure that has happened.

Much of the rest of your post is just needlessly insulting. Why don't I as a fan deserve a manager who is grossly underperforming? Why does the manager deserve the support of someone like me, who pays his huge wages? Who on earth do you think you are, to go making any moral judgements on who I do or don't deserve as a manager? Politely, have you clocked 30,000 a year following the club home and away year after year? I hate bringing that stuff up, and I know not everyone can do that stuff, but I wouldn't sit there making judgements on what someone does or doesn't deserve, from a position of having likely not really attended many games.

He will likely score the lowest points total in his 1st season as manager for any manager this century. I expect my club to aim to be the best. If he is the worst this century, I have given enough time, money and effort to be able to put a critical opinion, no? So please, don't start with telling me what I do or don't deserve. I wouldn't do it to you.

Can you elaborate what makes Tottenham or Arsenal "better" clubs than Everton? Why is a draw against Tottenham "doing better" or meaning he is above any criticism. You know we defeated Tottenham home and away last season don't you? Why is a draw against Tottenham, who've won nothing of note in my lifetime a good result?

Moyes is a far better manager than Benitez. He operated for 11 years on the budget Benitez has, and his supporters never insulted the fanbase as you have today. We never lost a derby at home by the margin he did. We never acted like a draw against Tottenham at home was some miracle result. We finished in the top 8 almost every season. He inherited a woeful squad (as someone who was going every week back then I am aware of such small details) about to be relegated, not one that finished 31 points above the relegation zone.

As a final aside, I'd love to hear what you think above makes me a sky sports fan. I attend matches regularly, and I suspect you watch Sky Sports, not me. And that is meant as respectfully as it can be.

Excellent post this.
Couldn’t agree more.

 

[blue to the bone]

Hold on mate, some of this is complete nonsense.

The crisis I refer to, is being in the bottom 6 in the league, getting little over a point a game. The previous manager, had us within 8 points of the CL, 31 points clear of the relegation zone (about as far away from it as we have been in my lifetime). So relatively speaking, the teams performance of which he is accountable has put us into crisis. Injuries are no excuse either, we had far worse injuries last season, and got to 59 points. Thats the baseline for his performance, which has really plummeted.

I am not sure what "incompetence" you refer to, perhaps you could give some details? Our injury record has been poor under him, no? Or do other people get the blame even when he is in charge?

As for Digne, I have no idea if he's spat his dummy out and won't get drawn on idle speculation. The reality is though, it's the mangers job to ensure players don't spit their dummies out, so if he has, that is on Benitez too. I have given him the benefit of the doubt on that, as I'm not sure that has happened.

Much of the rest of your post is just needlessly insulting. Why don't I as a fan deserve a manager who is grossly underperforming? Why does the manager deserve the support of someone like me, who pays his huge wages? Who on earth do you think you are, to go making any moral judgements on who I do or don't deserve as a manager? Politely, have you clocked 30,000 a year following the club home and away year after year? I hate bringing that stuff up, and I know not everyone can do that stuff, but I wouldn't sit there making judgements on what someone does or doesn't deserve, from a position of having likely not really attended many games.

He will likely score the lowest points total in his 1st season as manager for any manager this century. I expect my club to aim to be the best. If he is the worst this century, I have given enough time, money and effort to be able to put a critical opinion, no? So please, don't start with telling me what I do or don't deserve. I wouldn't do it to you.

Can you elaborate what makes Tottenham or Arsenal "better" clubs than Everton? Why is a draw against Tottenham "doing better" or meaning he is above any criticism. You know we defeated Tottenham home and away last season don't you? Why is a draw against Tottenham, who've won nothing of note in my lifetime a good result?

Moyes is a far better manager than Benitez. He operated for 11 years on the budget Benitez has, and his supporters never insulted the fanbase as you have today. We never lost a derby at home by the margin he did. We never acted like a draw against Tottenham at home was some miracle result. We finished in the top 8 almost every season. He inherited a woeful squad (as someone who was going every week back then I am aware of such small details) about to be relegated, not one that finished 31 points above the relegation zone.

As a final aside, I'd love to hear what you think above makes me a sky sports fan. I attend matches regularly, and I suspect you watch Sky Sports, not me. And that is meant as respectfully as it can be.

Spot on. The response here will be interesting.
Especially as the other day he said all fans are equal.

 

[windymiller]

Like two peas in a pod this pair. How strange.

The sad thing is that bellend78 will disappear the minute Benitez is gone but JimmyNail92 will have to stay here and deal with the fallout.

 

[Bluestar]

Yeah so hard winning trophies with Chelsea , Liverpool , Valencia

Almost as tough as winning stuff with Sheff Utd and Burnley really.

Didn’t work out well for Moyes, or Lampard, or Salskjaer or Rogers at Liverpool etc.

Winning doesn’t just happen.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Yes that makes sense.

Just to add a bit on, my two pennies worth on Simms and Dobbin. These are not wholly inconsistent with what I've said about both in the youth teams thread. I don't think Simms was good enough. He surprised me how well he did at Chelsea, his hold up play was good and he won some headers. Against the defence he was, he occupied them and showed more mobility than Rondon. He was bright. The derby aside, he was far better than any performance from Rondon, and arguably better than him in the derby. I thought he did very well up against Rudiger and Silva (who are better than Liverpool's CB in my opinion). He was a big plus and to me should have played earlier.

Dobbin I thought was excellent, he looks alive and quick in the way Jeffers did when he 1st broke through. He should have had more minutes, especially when chasing games. He's not like for like for Rondon, so it's hard to evaluate him, but honestly, I'm surprised we haven't seen more of Dobbin.

The concern is, if you don't play Dobbin, he will leave. As a club we can't afford this to keep happening, after Small left following the Benitez appointment. Our problem post 2014, and in truth before that has been as a club we have little idea how we can realistically over achieve given the constraints we face. There's no discussion on it at a strategic level. We need to have a far more youth focused approach, and allow football experts to run the club.Monaco, Sevilla, Dortmund, Leipzig, Lille etc who have all over achieved have a strong DOF model that tilts towards youth development and opportunity. At some point you have to mandate coaches to be a part of this. Until Chelsea, we haven't seen enough of that (and in fairness Ancelotti didn't either).

Chelsea gave Benitez a window of opportunity. Brainthwaite and Dobbin have given him real headaches over some of the players we have seen. Simms too in relation to Rondon. We cannot keep picking senior players on the basis of what they are paid, or that they may be able to take criticism better, that is no strategy at all.

As for Benitez, I would have sacked him after the Liverpool abomination, to me he was a disgrace that night. However he is here. Personally I'd like to see a proper structure put in off the field. DBB/Kenwright chased with better people employed (I'd make an approach for Edwards from that lot) and I'm sure once those people are in situ then then will deal with Benitez.

As for the summer business, I don't think we can say he did it all. We know Brands scouted Gray regularly, and signed him. Benitez seems to have signed the other 4, 3 of which have been complete duds, and 1 in Townsend who started ok but honestly is looking poor recently. It could easily be 4 signed, 4 duds for Benitez I'm afraid.

The last paragraph seems too convenient for me. So Benitez was wholly responsible for the duds but not for the hit? I don’t buy that especially with Benitez claiming he’d followed Gray even prior to becoming manager here. Even with the other signings has Townsend become a dud now? Are his stats poor? He had a few ineffective games then got injured, but does that make a bad signing especially considering he was free? Gray has been brilliant. Lonergan and Begovic were emergency signings to replace Olsen and Virginia. Again both free. I would have loved to have kept Olsen but we probably couldn’t afford him.

As for Dobbin. It’s not as though we didn’t play him before the Chelsea game. We have done. He’s also had his own injuries as well. Considering he’s not a known phenomenon (e.g Rooney, Barkley) I’d say his game time hasn’t been unreasonable for a player of his profile. The big plus of course has been Gordon who has been favoured ahead of Iwobi.

I agree with you on a strategy for utilising the youth players. They’ve got to be good ones though. The likes of Davies Holgate Kenny we put a lot of trust in but quite frankly they just haven’t been good enough. DCL has undoubtedly and so was Stones and Barkley before. We had a so called golden generation of Davies Dowell Connely Kenny Ledson coming through immediately after Barkley. They got changes but were just nowhere near good enough. The ones that did annoy me were Lookman and Vlasic who I felt we should have played a lot more. Perhaps we need a restructuring of the academy but in fairness Gordon Dobbin Onyango look a bit of a better bet at this stage (mind you so did Davies at 17)

I agree with you that some buys have blocked pathways to the first team such as Iwobi, Delph etc. I’d like to have seen more of Onyango Gordon etc. but to do this you have to have managerial stability, fit players, a settled team, and ideally a decent team.

When you have managers trying to rescue the team from relegation troubles midway through seasons, and they have injury problems, and the team is playing poorly, they are highly highly unlikely to throw in young players that may or may not be of the quality required.

I actually don’t think we’ve done THAT badly in terms of trying to play youth players. I don’t see the top teams throwing teenagers in and keeping them in the first team (Foden perhaps the only example who even then got two seasons under Silva before he was a regular). I don’t see many teams in the PL starting multiple academy teenagers in games. The norm seems to be that the best one or two are on the bench. That for us would be Gordon who is now playing almost every week.

Like I said I think we actually out an awful lot of faith in DCL Holgate Davies as a young spine for the team, playing all of them probably far more as very young players than other clubs would. Davies was getting selected by managers over far more expensive experienced midfield options despite really not being good enough recently. No one can say we haven’t persisted with some of these players.

The problem with some fans though, and particularly Everton fans who have needed to put their faith in a superstars academy player rescuing the first team, is that we always want more. Under Moyes it wasn’t enough for him to blood Osman and Hibbert, and then Rooney, and then Rodwell Baughan Anichebe, and then Barkley, it was always about whatever 16 year old was in the academy that he wasn’t playing. He even threw them in from time to time and most just completely flopped but they all got a chance. The verdict from most fans was that he didn’t trust youth though even though some of his teams were littered with them.

We’re having a similar thing now but on a smaller scale. Everton have been playing the youth as I said, the ‘golden generation’ plus DCL and Holgate all got a lot of first team games. Then Gordon has done almost immediately. Onyango and Dobbin have been getting into the pitch this season. It’s not enough though is it. The fans want them starting, and what about 16 year old Small (has he even played for Southampton btw yet?) why isn’t he first choice yet. By the end of this season we might see a first team squad that has Simms Dobbin Gordon Branthwaite Onyango all integrated into it but no one will care and it will be straight into moaning about the next 16 year old who has bagged a few goals for the youth team. I get it but most of these teenage kids in the future won’t be good enough and shouldn’t be starting premier league games. They don’t at other clubs. We have to bring them through sensibly if they are good enough.

 

[Bluestar]

Benitez is another Sam Allardyce now. He does the same job Sam Allardyce does. But he has a better PR machine.

Allardyce spent £40m on Walcott and Tosun. Benitez spent £1.7m on Gray and Townsend. Let’s judge at the end of the season.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

Didn’t work out well for Moyes, or Lampard, or Salskjaer or Rogers at Liverpool etc.

Winning doesn’t just happen.

You're right, but it's undeniable Benitez does far better at clubs with an awful lot already in place. There's little that indicates, to me, he's the man to take forward a mid table club in need of restructuring.

If he was a plastic surgeon he'd be good for a little nip and tuck, but I'd look elsewhere for a radical post-accident reconstruction.

 

[catcherintherye]

Spot on. The response here will be interesting.
Especially as the other day he said all fans are equal.

Honestly, I have no issue with the guy, or any fan who supports the manager, or opposes them. I really enjoy engaging with Davek, Saint Domingo, ForeverBlue etc who are right behind the manager (along with loads of others). I met my old man over Christmas, he's completely behind Benitez. If it wasn't for him, I doubt I'd even be an Evertonian. You're not some super blue for not supporting the manager, or a Kopite if you are. I've shied away from any of that stuff.

However whats not on is to start telling people they don't deserve a manager because you've politely pointed out that we have gone from 59 points in a season to 19 from 17 games. Getting personnel and questioning whether you deserve the club is completely out of line.

If you want to disagree then thats fine, but I'm not having people questioning whether or not I can bean Evertonian, when I'm not convinced he's even been to a match.

This is the problem with this manager too. He attracts complete whoppers. It was exactly the same at Liverpool. Loads of complete numpties and hanger ons jump to his bandwagon.

 

[catcherintherye]

Allardyce spent £40m on Walcott and Tosun. Benitez spent £1.7m on Gray and Townsend. Let’s judge at the end of the season.

Yes Allardyce has spent more.

Allardyce inherited a team in the bottom 3 with no pre-season and got them to 8th. Benitez had all summer and inherited a side that was 31 points clear of the bottom 3.

Whatever you think of each manager, thus far Allardyce has far outperformed Benitez, even if you factor in that he had 40m more to spend than him.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

Honestly, I have no issue with the guy, or any fan who supports the manager, or opposes them. I really enjoy engaging with Davek, Saint Domingo, ForeverBlue etc who are right behind the manager (along with loads of others). I met my old man over Christmas, he's completely behind Benitez. If it wasn't for him, I doubt I'd even be an Evertonian. You're not some super blue for not supporting the manager, or a Kopite if you are. I've shied away from any of that stuff.

However whats not on is to start telling people they don't deserve a manager because you've politely pointed out that we have gone from 59 points in a season to 19 from 17 games. Getting personnel and questioning whether you deserve the club is completely out of line.

If you want to disagree then thats fine, but I'm not having people questioning whether or not I can bean Evertonian, when I'm not convinced he's even been to a match.

This is the problem with this manager too. He attracts complete whoppers. It was exactly the same at Liverpool. Loads of complete numpties and hanger ons jump to his bandwagon.

That's an unequivocal 'no'.

 

[COYBL25]

So what is this crisis Benitez has got the Club into.. has he injured DCL.. Mina.. Dacoure etc.. did he cause the incompetence of the medical staff over the years or maybe caused Brands so waste so much money on duds.. maybe he caused the likes of Digne to spit his dummy out on whatever he asked him to do in the best interests of Everton Football Club...
you know something maybe some fans don’t deserve a manager who has obviously sunk everything into this job.. countless Interviews.. family threatened.. bedsheets.. fans berating every single decision he makes and even when he does do well against better clubs like Arsenal.. Spurs and Chelsea he still gets no credit...
You couldn’t make this stuff up especially when some would rather have a loser like Moyes instead, flavour of the month like Potter or rookies like Ferguson and Rooney.. some people don’t understand football.. SKY Sports brigade in full flow..

Can I sum it all up for you ?

He was never ever wanted here, that`s why.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

Honestly, I have no issue with the guy, or any fan who supports the manager, or opposes them. I really enjoy engaging with Davek, Saint Domingo, ForeverBlue etc who are right behind the manager (along with loads of others). I met my old man over Christmas, he's completely behind Benitez. If it wasn't for him, I doubt I'd even be an Evertonian. You're not some super blue for not supporting the manager, or a Kopite if you are. I've shied away from any of that stuff.

However whats not on is to start telling people they don't deserve a manager because you've politely pointed out that we have gone from 59 points in a season to 19 from 17 games. Getting personnel and questioning whether you deserve the club is completely out of line.

If you want to disagree then thats fine, but I'm not having people questioning whether or not I can bean Evertonian, when I'm not convinced he's even been to a match.

This is the problem with this manager too. He attracts complete whoppers. It was exactly the same at Liverpool. Loads of complete numpties and hanger ons jump to his bandwagon.

That's an unequivocal 'too right'

 

[FrenchDarrenBent]

Like two peas in a pod this pair. How strange.

That's too harsh.

Let's see how things go against Brighton, senator McCarthy, before we accuse @ForeverBlue92 of anything we can legitimately accuse @Legend78 of.

 

[COYBL25]

Spot on. The response here will be interesting.
Especially as the other day he said all fans are equal.

He still hasn`t told us who he actually supports, even though it`s plain as day.