Relegation

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Lanolin said:
I think this is where you get carried away talking about mentality all the time. Concentration and taking responsibility are actually skills. Football isn't just about being good at kicking a ball, it's about making the right decisions, awareness, movement, concentration, consistency, knowing your limitations etc. The best players are able to maintain high standards of those things over and over again, lesser players aren't. It's not as simple as just not trying hard enough or not having the right mentality, some players just struggle to produce the same level of performance on a regular basis. It's way too simplistic to put inconsistency down to lack of effort.
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It’s a mix. Some players are simply not good enough even though they are actually trying quite hard at times:

I’d put Davies Kenny Keane Coleman firmly in that group.

There’s some players though that I think their inconsistency isn’t just down to not being good, it’s down to application and effort: Gomes being a prime example of this, Holgate another one, Godfrey at times, Mina at times, Docuoure and Allan at times. Everyone can accept an off performance of not being at their best every game but these wild swings between looking very good at one moment and then completely anonymous jogging round barely impacting the game the next is not normal for premier league players. Either they are far worse than people think, or they’re not putting the required effort in every game. Either way that’s not good for us.
 
Saint Domingo said:
It’s a mix. Some players are simply not good enough even though they are actually trying quite hard at times:

I’d put Davies Kenny Keane Coleman firmly in that group.

There’s some players though that I think their inconsistency isn’t just down to not being good, it’s down to application and effort: Gomes being a prime example of this, Holgate another one, Godfrey at times, Mina at times, Docuoure and Allan at times. Everyone can accept an off performance of not being at their best every game but these wild swings between looking very good at one moment and then completely anonymous jogging round barely impacting the game the next is not normal for premier league players. Either they are far worse than people think, or they’re not putting the required effort in every game. Either way that’s not good for us.
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This is what I mean though, the players you're deciding aren't good enough are the ones who have obvious technical issues. The ones that my 8 year old nephew would be able to say 'he's rubbish' when watching a game. The players who are technically better you automatically assume the reason they don't perform well is because they don't try hard enough, because you're not taking into account that being a top class footballer isn't just about having a few good attributes and trying. You're really oversimplifying it to a massive extent.

Holgate for example struggles to make the right decision both on the ball and off it, that is a talent issue not an effort one. There's a post in his thread where somebody's highlighted the poor decision he makes leading to a goal, and unfortunately that isn't uncommon for him. Sometimes he will go 90 minutes without making a poor decision, sometimes he will make poor decisions which he gets away with, and sometimes he will make poor decisions which cause a problem. It's not that he isn't trying to make the right decision, it's that he doesn't know what the right decision is. Godfrey is one who basically relies on his physical attributes, he's not brilliant positionally and not the best at sensing danger but he is very quick and strong and can often use those attributes to great effect. Sometimes he can't though, and that's when he looks poor. Gomes looks good with time and space but struggles when pressed and when up against people who are stronger and faster than him. These are all limitations in the ability of the player.

I'm not saying they all have the perfect attitude and none of it is related to that, but it's much more down to talent. You don't have to be great or awful, many of our players are reasonably talented but also have fairly big weaknesses. Unfortunately we currently have some combinations - centre half and midfield in particular - where we're partnering people together who have the same weaknesses, and it causes a huge problem.
 

Saint Domingo said:
It’s a mix. Some players are simply not good enough even though they are actually trying quite hard at times:

I’d put Davies Kenny Keane Coleman firmly in that group.

There’s some players though that I think their inconsistency isn’t just down to not being good, it’s down to application and effort: Gomes being a prime example of this, Holgate another one, Godfrey at times, Mina at times, Docuoure and Allan at times. Everyone can accept an off performance of not being at their best every game but these wild swings between looking very good at one moment and then completely anonymous jogging round barely impacting the game the next is not normal for premier league players. Either they are far worse than people think, or they’re not putting the required effort in every game. Either way that’s not good for us.
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I agree, we have a collection of players who through attitude and athletic ability wouldn't get into other teams. I think we're numb to how spineless they are.

I think it comes from having a handful of skilful players like Sigurdsson, Richarlison, Digne, James who we're relied on, and the fact that the club has clearly courted such players at the expense of demanding higher levels of commitment. The appointment of luxury managers like Koeman speaks to the same pretentiousness. The problem is some of those key players are now no longer here not in form, and the rest are now poorly drilled and lazy. With the above-mentioned players now gone we've nothing to fall back on.

The situation is mitigated by having energy in Gordon and Gray, but in pursuit of silkier footballers we've had a long line of pretentious deadweight players (and managers) like Iwobi, formerly Bernard, Klassen etc. who lack physical or battling qualities altogether at the detriment of the wider team.

It's a story of decadence and decline.
 
Pre FL I thought we were deffo going...
Brentford gave me current and future hope...
Last night was always going to be tough and a draw wiould have been great...
Only we could reply with an OG....

Think 34 points maybe enough....
But we can’t buy a win and things beginning to conspire...
We’d probably do it in style and go down on goal difference having had all the opportunities to sort it...

Stating another obvious saying Leeds is a must win but 3 points would provide huge respite...

Choosing to remain hopeful whilst still in our own hands....

Only at Everton....
 
Lanolin said:
This is what I mean though, the players you're deciding aren't good enough are the ones who have obvious technical issues. The ones that my 8 year old nephew would be able to say 'he's rubbish' when watching a game. The players who are technically better you automatically assume the reason they don't perform well is because they don't try hard enough, because you're not taking into account that being a top class footballer isn't just about having a few good attributes and trying. You're really oversimplifying it to a massive extent.

Holgate for example struggles to make the right decision both on the ball and off it, that is a talent issue not an effort one. There's a post in his thread where somebody's highlighted the poor decision he makes leading to a goal, and unfortunately that isn't uncommon for him. Sometimes he will go 90 minutes without making a poor decision, sometimes he will make poor decisions which he gets away with, and sometimes he will make poor decisions which cause a problem. It's not that he isn't trying to make the right decision, it's that he doesn't know what the right decision is. Godfrey is one who basically relies on his physical attributes, he's not brilliant positionally and not the best at sensing danger but he is very quick and strong and can often use those attributes to great effect. Sometimes he can't though, and that's when he looks poor. Gomes looks good with time and space but struggles when pressed and when up against people who are stronger and faster than him. These are all limitations in the ability of the player.

I'm not saying they all have the perfect attitude and none of it is related to that, but it's much more down to talent. You don't have to be great or awful, many of our players are reasonably talented but also have fairly big weaknesses. Unfortunately we currently have some combinations - centre half and midfield in particular - where we're partnering people together who have the same weaknesses, and it causes a huge problem.
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All leads to the same thing. They’re not good enough. Spin it whatever way we want, some are trying, some aren’t, some try sometimes, some are but just aren’t good enough to be consistent. Whatever way you want to break it down. They’re not good enough.
 

Squad balance is shocking. Been an obvious issue for years, they keep buying players we don't need and not signing ones we do.

Had the money, time, and points on the board for this not to have been an issue. We could have sacked Benitez in December, given the new manager another 5 or so fixtures, and time to target the right players.

The whole "gutless" thing is pure nonsense. It is about the fact we don't have the right players to play elite level football. If you can't win the ball back or retain it you are in big trouble.

We don't have any of our creators from last season and have missed our finishers for most of this plus our main CM and CB.

They wasted the transfer window, signed 5 players who either don't fix obvious issues or aren't ready.

It could have been fixed but the lack of football knowledge on the board has put the future of this club at stake.
 
Gilbert.. said:
You are talking though like we can cherry pick easier games to maybe win. We are 6 points from 46 with cherry picking games having been in there. If we were posting this a few weeks ago we'd have been putting norwich down as the chance to get points.
The form needs to be turned on its head drastically.
I saw these posts not that long ago with the oh we're 7 or 8 points ahead. No problems.
Norwich go level on points tonight with a win. Thats how quickly you can be in it.
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TBH under Benitez I had all but given up, but I still think he would probably have just kept us up due to the teams below us, problem was he made even the home games toxic, problem was last night there fans are like our fans were on saturday, new signings and renewed optimism. I do expect the fans to help us much more at home from now on now that Benitez has gone.
 
DanEFC92 said:
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We won one game since September. We are heading into March. That's more than relegation. That's bottom of table stuff. Only for we are top of the table 4 games in. The bottom 3 have caught up on us massively and are a win or two from over taking. It all seems to be going in one direction.

The people that aren't worried. I don't get you.
 
Can only imagine people playing down the prospect of relegation are people who blew thier beans over Lampard and subsequently the bounce game.

Not knocking Lampard. Just think this is a job for the likes of BFS. Its a shame we used that card when in a much less scarier situation.
 
Fansince1988 said:
TBH under Benitez I had all but given up, but I still think he would probably have just kept us up due to the teams below us, problem was he made even the home games toxic, problem was last night there fans are like our fans were on saturday, new signings and renewed optimism. I do expect the fans to help us much more at home from now on now that Benitez has gone.
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Its going to be a lot tighter than i think some do.
We're not winning games
We dont keep clean sheets.
We're going to need teams to be worse than us rather than i feel climb out on our own merit.
 

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