Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[nsno-chris]

Could be a lot better if our defenders grew a pair and we had a captain of note instead of a church mouse.

You mean the same defence you were happy with when we kept a few clean sheets. The problem is Dave your far to invested in martinez that you can't even argue a point anymore. It's just the opposite of what everyone else is seeing on the pitch. An example:

- We kept a few clean sheets not so long ago - your response was "I told you he can organise a defence properly"

- We starting conceding again and you immediately attack the defence and jags, a man who massively improved the defence after his injury.

The issue is the tactics on offer, I mean for Christ sake I'm a massive critic of martinez yet still managed
praised him when we went on that mini tight defence run. I thought the penny had dropped.

Your arguments are becoming nothing but an exercise now, some people bite and go round the houses with you, others sit back and think you're a wum.

Open your eyes and see that we do have a defensive problem that runs deeper than the back line, maybe your posts will start a constructive debate rather than a little bitch fight with others

 

[davek]

Really? Don`t remember 17th place being his parting gift for us or united.

You`re going to have to try harder than that mate.

It happened didn't it?

Moyes record in the top flight:

• almost killed us
• put Man Utd back to the 1970s
• almost relegated Sociedad and caused an international incident

 

[davek]

I agree on this - at least in terms if that RM is sacked before the end of this season then it will in no way inspire our better players to stay on.

...not only that mate, but are we guaranteed to get a replacement who can buy this type of quality for what we pay out? No. And even if Moshiri coughs a few quid up it means no guarantee of buying quality - look at Spurs a few seasons ago or Liverpool under Dalglish and Rodgers.

It's a dimension of Martinez's reign that WILL be front and centre if any decision is made on his future...which there wont be.

 

[eddy]

Really? okay.. try this one..

Yes, the crime stat is a stat, because in say 2010 there were 20,000 crimes in an area in 2016 there were 40,000 crimes in an area... the crimes have increase, this would be a stat or fact...

How many crimes there would of been if that area had chosen a different candidate to promote to Chief Superintendent however is guesswork..

If you use the figures (stats) to make an assumption, you have made a guess based on facts..
If you just use the stats to show maybe an increase or decline in something, or something else that is provable, then you can create a fact..

Example: Car hits a tree

A car was doing 30 mph (stat)
Hits the tree doing 60mph.. (stat)
The car has sped up (fact)
Why did it speed up? (Question)
Probably the car was being chased by the Chief Superintendent mentioned above (guess)

Evidence arrives and the car was actually being followed by the Superintendent, confirmed by the Superintendent with in car camera footage.. The superintendent was following the car when it sped up, this is now fact.

Therefore the car sped up and hit the tree because the driver was being chased by the police... is a ... actually it is still not a fact or stat.. its still an assumption or guess..

That he is being followed by the police is still not evidence of why he sped up, he may be rushing to the hospital because his wife is giving birth, the police following him being little more than an extra annoyance...
The police may actually be escorting the car because it was a diplomatic envoy who was delayed by traffic and needed to catch a plane urgently.
He may even of just joined a dual carriageway obeying the speed limits, the police car was just following behind it also obeying the speed limit without any interest in the car in front.

Without knowing more, you can have stats, facts and assumptions which can easily be misconstrued. Note the assumptions above state the car was chased, whereas the facts say followed.

Stats or facts are simply ot disputable, they are fact, they are events that happened and are tangibly defined.

Using your dictionary example, it talks about the stats, but extrapolation of those stats to show what the crime rates will be like next year are guesses, or what the crime rate would be under different variables (extra police, certain initiatives) are guesses, or how fast the car would of accelerated to before it hit the tree it hit, or how your team would do without its star striker is a guess.. All guesses based on stats and facts, but clearly not stats or facts.

Unless you know the variables around a stat, your conclusions will not be a fact, just a guess.

What you offered up was a complete guess, not even an educated or informed guess, just a number plucked out of the air as to how we would of done without Lukaku.

I'm gonna stop talking about this now (hopefully before I get thread banned).. fact... maybe

Sorry mods

And that was the point, how we would of done without Lukaku, 16th place 30 points, a fact not plucked out of the air but simply deducting the goals and the points those goals have gotten us . The rest is as you correctly say conjecture, opinions, or points of view, mine based upon the `fact` that he is the second highest scorer in the premier league this season, and in my opinion we could not of replicated those goals with a replacement. We may or may not have scored some but not all, my opinion would be less, thus placing us lower than our current position ... 12th

 

[roydo]

It happened didn't it?

Moyes record in the top flight:

• almost killed us
• put Man Utd back to the 1970s
• almost relegated Sociedad and caused an international incident

lollol

 

[silent bob]

Losing under Moyes = managers fault.
Losing under Martinez = players fault.

Is this hypocricy or double standards??

Seems some on here aren`t too sure which.

*puts on tin hat and heads for the fence.

 

[Ihaters]

And that was the point, how we would of done without Lukaku, 16th place 30 points, a fact not plucked out of the air but simply deducting the goals and the points those goals have gotten us . The rest is as you correctly say conjecture, opinions, or points of view, mine based upon the `fact` that he is the second highest scorer in the premier league this season, and in my opinion we could not of replicated those goals with a replacement. We may or may not have scored some but not all, my opinion would be less, thus placing us lower than our current position ... 12th

I said I would stop.. so I'm saying nothing...

 

[silent bob]

It happened didn't it?

Moyes record in the top flight:

• almost killed us
• put Man Utd back to the 1970s
• almost relegated Sociedad and caused an international incident

Yes it did happen. But leaving us finishing consistently in the top 8 also happened.

Almost killed us? Poppycock.
Put Utd back to the 70s? Patently ridiculous statement.
Sociedad? Honestly not arsed about.

 

[ricer10]

I know we have capitulated more than a few times .... I know that Martinez is stubborn and annoying with his public comments.... I know that his substitutions are baffling when they don't come off....BUT imo we played a masterclass for 75 min last Saturday. If Lukaku scores that penalty...it is game over and we are praising the squad and manager. Are we the finished article ? Not close....but we have a young team and manager that appear to be on the whole a fairly decent group. I think Martinez gets till next year to sort it out. Pressure is mounting , he'll either adapt and grow or he'll be out. I still think there is some hope.

 

[davek]

Yes it did happen. But leaving us finishing consistently in the top 8 also happened.

Almost killed us? Poppycock.
Put Utd back to the 70s? Patently ridiculous statement.
Sociedad? Honestly not arsed about.

His greatest legacy for us was to stamp us as a long ball team...something that this manager has had to struggle to break down with playing staff and many supporters who grew fond of their hoofball.

 

[Ihaters]

I know we have capitulated more than a few times .... I know that Martinez is stubborn and annoying with his public comments.... I know that his substitutions are baffling when they don't come off....BUT imo we played a masterclass for 75 min last Saturday. If Lukaku scores that penalty...it is game over and we are praising the squad and manager. Are we the finished article ? Not close....but we have a young team and manager that appear to be on the whole a fairly decent group. I think Martinez gets till next year to sort it out. Pressure is mounting , he'll either adapt and grow or he'll be out. I still think there is some hope.

Two words that seemed to follow the two managers of recent years around
Moyes - Limited: He hit his glass ceiling which to be fair was a very impressively high one, most players hit their glass ceiling and Everton were at their peak in how they setup, played etc
Martinez - Potential: There is no ceiling, there is a chance he could take us anywhere, all the players are capable of great things.. but its all potential and so far nothing coming of it.

We are a young team, with bags of potential, a manager with bags of potential, but only if we improve on our mistakes.. We just don't, we do the same thing over and over again. Potential to improve is none existent if you don't try to improve.

We could conceivably be fairly beyond a decent group, I really rate this squad tbh, and I love how play going forwards at times. But our manager appears to be blind to what he can achieve and its more frustrating than a defeat, its wasted potential.

I still like that we could break the old glass ceiling, but the chance of that seems less and less likely every game.

 

[MikeH72]

So did Steve Bruce, Paul Jewell.



Do you not think we're better than Palace, Watford, West Ham...?

Our piss poor results against them, is why Martinez is facing criticism.

I'd even say our starting 11 is as good as, if not better than United's.

Oh yeah exactly, but we'll still have Martinez in charge if we were to play those teams so chances are, we'd lose. His track record suggests that any time we play a team that's anywhere near as good as us, or better, we'll get beat

 

[MikeH72]

It happened didn't it?

Moyes record in the top flight:

• almost killed us
• put Man Utd back to the 1970s
• almost relegated Sociedad and caused an international incident

Pretty much saved us actually, but ok whatever

 

[Ihaters]

His greatest legacy for us was to stamp us as a long ball team....

No mate, that was your greatest legacy

 

[silent bob]

His greatest legacy for us was to stamp us as a long ball team...something that this manager has had to struggle to break down with playing staff and many supporters who grew fond of their hoofball.

Don`t misunderstand me mate i had several issues with Moyes tenure but one 17th place finish isn`t a stick to beat him with and whilst i agree it wasn`t always pretty, neither is it accurate to paint him completely with the hoofball brush.

To try to bring some balance can i offer you this trend,

5th>11th>currently 12th.

That`s more indicative of a slide towards Beachy Head.