Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[GrandOldTeam]

Misplaced?

I think It's hardly misplaced for people to look at the good things he's done and proven both in terms of progressing youth AND with a team all fit and in peak powers.

Say he left Wigan and went to West Ham instead of us...

If he did exactly what he did at Everton, for West Ham - nobody would be advocating him as an Everton manager IMO.

 

[silent bob]

Moyes won nothing in 11 years and almost drove us over the cliff he had United heading for...he got a free pass. Strange.

I may have missed something here but exactly what cliff?

 

[Ihaters]

Ok Ok would you accept `informed opinion`?


statistic
stəˈtɪstɪk/
noun
noun: statistic; plural noun: statistics

1. 1.
   a fact or piece of data obtained from a study of a large quantity of numerical data.
   "the statistics show that the crime rate has increased"
   • an event or person regarded as no more than a piece of data (used to suggest an inappropriately impersonal approach).
     "he was just another statistic"

adjective
adjective: statistic

1. 1.
   another term for statistical.

Really? okay.. try this one..

Yes, the crime stat is a stat, because in say 2010 there were 20,000 crimes in an area in 2016 there were 40,000 crimes in an area... the crimes have increase, this would be a stat or fact...

How many crimes there would of been if that area had chosen a different candidate to promote to Chief Superintendent however is guesswork..

If you use the figures (stats) to make an assumption, you have made a guess based on facts..
If you just use the stats to show maybe an increase or decline in something, or something else that is provable, then you can create a fact..

Example: Car hits a tree

A car was doing 30 mph (stat)
Hits the tree doing 60mph.. (stat)
The car has sped up (fact)
Why did it speed up? (Question)
Probably the car was being chased by the Chief Superintendent mentioned above (guess)

Evidence arrives and the car was actually being followed by the Superintendent, confirmed by the Superintendent with in car camera footage.. The superintendent was following the car when it sped up, this is now fact.

Therefore the car sped up and hit the tree because the driver was being chased by the police... is a ... actually it is still not a fact or stat.. its still an assumption or guess..

That he is being followed by the police is still not evidence of why he sped up, he may be rushing to the hospital because his wife is giving birth, the police following him being little more than an extra annoyance...
The police may actually be escorting the car because it was a diplomatic envoy who was delayed by traffic and needed to catch a plane urgently.
He may even of just joined a dual carriageway obeying the speed limits, the police car was just following behind it also obeying the speed limit without any interest in the car in front.

Without knowing more, you can have stats, facts and assumptions which can easily be misconstrued. Note the assumptions above state the car was chased, whereas the facts say followed.

Stats or facts are simply ot disputable, they are fact, they are events that happened and are tangibly defined.

Using your dictionary example, it talks about the stats, but extrapolation of those stats to show what the crime rates will be like next year are guesses, or what the crime rate would be under different variables (extra police, certain initiatives) are guesses, or how fast the car would of accelerated to before it hit the tree it hit, or how your team would do without its star striker is a guess.. All guesses based on stats and facts, but clearly not stats or facts.

Unless you know the variables around a stat, your conclusions will not be a fact, just a guess.

What you offered up was a complete guess, not even an educated or informed guess, just a number plucked out of the air as to how we would of done without Lukaku.

I'm gonna stop talking about this now (hopefully before I get thread banned).. fact... maybe

Sorry mods

 

[AJC5]

Misplaced?

I think It's hardly misplaced for people to look at the good things he's done and proven both in terms of progressing youth AND with a team all fit and in peak powers.

We're twelfth. The definition of madness is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. We need a manager to get us in the top 4 on a consistent basis. Nothing Martinez has done last season or this season suggests he is the man to do this. The cup runs are meaningless unless we win and even then they're a spring board for sustained success which is what we should be aiming for.

 

[Blues Harp]

I have always said that he was the right man for the job at the time...wore out his welcome about 3 seasons before he left. He is not a winner...was never going to win us anything.

Martinez has proven that he can win something.

It is almost getting to the point though with our impatient fan base that the sack is inevitable. If we don't win the cup he will need to go simply because our entitled fans won't have the patience and will continue to create even a more hostile environment which will bread more poor results.

Regardless of any arguments regarding Martinez, why are you blaming the fans..impatient ? entitled ? I think even davek would reject those accusations. Patient - we have gone 21 years without a trophy and 8 years before that when we won the league in '87 ...Errr that's patience for me. Entitlement ? Leave that to the RS and the kopites - we are passionate fans - thats why we react when we see SEVEN defeats at home - I realise that you can't just fly over to home games or indeed aways (the away support incidentally consists of home S/t holders in the majority) but it IS different when you are actually there...By all means argue the merits of Martinez as posters on here have done but please don't demean the fans in the process. Thank you

 

[davek]

I'd even say our starting 11 is as good as, if not better than United's.

And do you think if Martinez leaves the squad will remain that good? I dont, not even if this Mush feller actually invests big sums (which I highly doubt in any case).

Let the feller see his contract out and then judge. He's just getting his squad together at this point.

Instant success. Where did this level of impatience come from? Not like we won anything for over two decades like.

 

[davek]

Our league form since the turn of the year is actually still quite crap

Played 9
Won 3
Drawn 3
Lost 3 - defeats at home to Swansea, West Brom and West Ham.

12 points out of a possible 27 is rank average in my book, hence why we are in 12th.

Could be a lot better if our defenders grew a pair and we had a captain of note instead of a church mouse.

 

[Ihaters]

Here's a scenario I've just made up (bit of fun, fume at it if you have to).

The Everton board are rocked by the 14/15 season. They have huge talents like Barkley and Stones and the premier league is finally in a state of open turmoil after Ferguson's resignation and Ciry keeping a big side out the top 4 every year. Despite this we are in a relegation battle and finish bottom half. Kenwright has watched Moyes control everything for 11 years on a low bet spend, now suddenly players aren't happy and are making it vocal, 30 mill was spent on a striker and we went backwards.

Kenwright being the man he is though decides to give Roberto the benefit of the doubt. The 15/16 season starts but the old habits creep in. There's fan discontent at the board that Roberto's failings are antagonising, there's fan discontent at the manager in unprecedented never before seen levels, we're still bottom half despite a number of new players coming in. The defence is getting worse and player unrest is in the air again.

Kenwright is watching all this in shock but is also working on the investment deal with Moshiri. Can he really hand over Everton to this new combo of manager and owner?

Not knowing what to do he puts in a phonecall to his best friend in football. They never stopped talking. 'David what do I do?'. Suddenly Moyes is available though. The job at Villa, turned down. West Ham, turned down. Swansea, turned down. Sunderland, turned down. Newcastle, turned down. Moyes openly admits though that he's turning down offers from Europe as he eyes a return to the premier league, but at what club? Baines Jags Mirallas are on the phone to him 'what's happened to our form gaffer'. And then in a few rare to interviews he starts dropping subtle references 'Everton would be a great club to go back to'.

Moshiri wants a manager popular with the fans to cement his new ownership and restore solid league form. He's no expert in managerial hiring from his time at Arsenal so leaves it to Bill.

He makes one final call on the last day of the 15/16 season after an embarassing finish of 13th. 'Please come home David', 'Aye Chairman'.

Think about it. Think about it. It could happen.

Well it would be nice to get back into Europe again, but i'll pass thanks. I'd rather someone continued Martinez work but looked at the back line as well.

 

[davek]

I may have missed something here but exactly what cliff?

17th > cliff > fall.

 

[BlueToff]

He made the key one at Ht and brought Stones off for Besic. That put us two up and a pen to see the game over the line. Pen get's missed and the defence goes AWOL three times in 15 minutes.

Sorry mate, but the key call was at HT and gave us easy enough to win the game regardless of any poor other substitution. You cant blame a manager for player cowardice on the pitch.

We can agree to disagree then mate, but IMO that sub on 76 was key.

We were under pressure but were looking comfortable. He brought on a player with no Prem experience and - to boot - who is a forward when down to 10 men and replaced the player that was giving us an outball as well as applying pressure to W.Ham at the other end.

Everything before that point was perfect but afterwards he panicked, IMO.

 

[BlueToff]

If he wins a cup he needs a statue built of him.

I wouldn't go that far...

He'd definitely stay on like, and deservedly so.

 

[silent bob]

17th > cliff > fall.

Really? Don`t remember 17th place being his parting gift for us or united.

You`re going to have to try harder than that mate.

 

[Ihaters]

When you take this into consideration, the reluctance to sack him based on having to pay compensation is ridiculous.

Is it correct though?

http://www.livesportsreviews.com/premier-league-prize-money-table-2015-2016/

Reckons about 1.2m per place so taking an average of 6th spot (what he took over from) over 2 years is actually about 12m.. not exactly peanuts, 12m gets a very nice player but I don't see where 50m comes in?

I guess there are additional revenues like TV matches shown being down because of our league position, but I still don't see 50m tbh.

 

[BlueToff]

And do you think if Martinez leaves the squad will remain that good? I dont, not even if this Mush feller actually invests big sums (which I highly doubt in any case).

Let the feller see his contract out and then judge. He's just getting his squad together at this point.

Instant success. Where did this level of impatience come from? Not like we won anything for over two decades like.

I agree on this - at least in terms if that RM is sacked before the end of this season then it will in no way inspire our better players to stay on.

 

[mkrudden]

Say he left Wigan and went to West Ham instead of us...

If he did exactly what he did at Everton, for West Ham - nobody would be advocating him as an Everton manager IMO.

Yeah I think that's probably right, mainly because on the outside its far more difficult to be kept abreast of what's happening within the club he is managing.

For example,

On the outside no one talks about Martinez and his development of Barkley.

They just say "Barkley had a bad year last year, looks better this"

We can see that Martinez has taken a lad through his break through season, his "found out year" and has now helped develop his game onto a whole new level.

He has done pretty much the exact same with Lukaku.

He will do the same with Stones.
He will do the same with Besic
He will do the same with Deulofeu.

I am stead fast in this belief because we have tangible proof that he can, has and is doing this.

Throw in a transfer kitty of a decent amount to buffer the squad with proven quality and we are onto a winner.

Obviously all about opinions, of course.