Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Mickey]

Kev might not have been the biggest factor in ROM signing but he was a bigger factor than Bobby imo. Those players have stagnated under Bobby, "Yeah but he made Stones a £40 million player". He's stopped Stones being a £60 million player imo.

 

[KUEFC09U2]

Kev might not have been the biggest factor in ROM signing but he was a bigger factor than Bobby imo. Those players have stagnated under Bobby, "Yeah but he made Stones a £40 million player". He's stopped Stones being a £60 million player imo.

Lukaku hasn't stagnated

 

[Mickey]

Lukaku hasn't stagnated

I think he has.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

I think he has.

Bloody Hell, I'd like to see him in full flow then!

 

[Mickey]

Bloody Hell, I'd like to see him in full flow then!

So would I mate.

 

[sd_1992]

Lukaku hasn't stagnated

Ever since Martinez took the creativity out of the team to make us more defensive lukaku has defiantly stagnated

 

[catcherintherye]

Of course you would say that! Thats what I am saying, its because you have an agenda against him.

You said Stones value has gone down, so that would make him less than 3M no?

You are also saying that none of the players listed are down to the manager so why bother having one? Just throw the players out there each week and have done with it.

So why did Lukaku say that he wanted to play for someone who had faith in him when he signed? I'm sure Mirallas said "yeah come and sign for us" even if it makes no real sense seeing as he wanted to leave himself....

That's a fair post mate and I think a few people are getting on his back and missing the wider point he's making.

Whether he's added 40, 37 or 25 million to Stones's value there is little doubt he has developed him. Barkley has also come on leaps and bounds and there have been some improvements with Lukaku. It's hard to knock Maritnez for this and he deserves credit.

However the improvements of such players have to be balanced by two things. 1) Most of the rest of the squad have deteriorated and 2) could he have got even more out of them?

In spite of developing 4 fantastic young players and having a decent nucleus of senior pro's he has still not managed to put out sides that consistently win. This is my big criticism of him. I thought eventually the penny would drop and we would start winning games. However I don't think he really knows how to do that and I'm sceptical he ever will at Everton. That in turn has led to the young players not developing further.

It's been said a lot, but I do think Martinez has a lot of talents. He'd be a great under 21's manager where results aren't key critical, player development is. However football is a results business. Stones is a wonderful player but if he's not capable of marshalling a defence that keeps clean sheets what is the point? Barkley is a very talented player but if he can't win us games consistently the same point applies.

There is no doubt Martinez develops players. In spite of this he finds ways to lose games that defy belief.

 

[Ashtonian]

sky sports say potentially 8th in the league could get europa league (unlikely scenario).

So when finishing top 8 gets you somewhere we don't lol

 

[billytoffee]

Lukaku hasn't stagnated

I think he has.

Bloody Hell, I'd like to see him in full flow then!

So would I mate.

Stagnated might be a bit strong in terms of choice of word as it indicates something has gone bad.

I think it is fair to say that he has not progressed as well as he might have done?

There has still been too many times where his first touch resembles that of a baby elephant.

There have still been too many times where he is out muscled by people he should be flattening.

Still too many times when challenging in the air that it looks a bit on the half measure.

Still too many times where he has looked completely uninterested (regardless of why that may be).

Too many times where he has apparently gobbed off to the press when away with the national gig.

Ultimately a young lad who is still developing and learning in many respects – just doesn’t be appearing to learn them with this management/coaching team.

But ultimately still banging the goals in (thank the Gods) otherwise we would be stuffed.

And wouldn’t it be great to see what he could do if he stays and is developed further!

 

[Mickey]

Rom set the bar for himself against Stoke. That needs to be the rule not the exception.

 

[cjuk87]

sky sports say potentially 8th in the league could get europa league (unlikely scenario).

So when finishing top 8 gets you somewhere we don't lol

Being positive and spinning it how Martinez would love...it could be fantastic for us, if the top 8 all had Europe to deal with next season.

More games, more tiredness, Everton and Jose top of the tree.

 

[Papa Shango]

I quote "Put an extra 40M on Stones value', which would mean his value would be £43m. Again nice try at trying to put words into someones mouth

I'd argue that Stones value increase happened due to the lads ability, previous coaching, and he would have broken through regardless of whether Martinez was there or not. The entire back 4 has regressed under Martinez, and I've seen nothing to suggest he is capable of coaching defenders and improving them as players. So I disagree, he hasn't added 40m onto the players value, and since last season where the club valued him at this figured I'd argue that Martinez influence, or rather lack of coaching ability, has decreased stones value from your 43m estimation

Again you're making stuff up by trying to say I'm saying something I'm not, if we didn't need a manger we could happily stick with Martinez. As for having an agenda against him, I wanted him to succeed, so quite the opposite. His last two seasons where he's regressed the team quite badly is what I'm judging him against, and his obvious flaws and weaknesses. So if wanting the manger to go because I don't think he's up to the job is an agenda, then I guess I do have one.

If you don't think Mirallas played a key role in convincing Lakaku to come here, then I"m not sure why he wouldn't leave until he was convinced Lakaku would sign. Why would he need to broach the subject if it was nailed on? Why would he need to be convinced? I'm sure there were more factors involved in the decision making process, but I'd also contend based on the interviews and quotes that came out subsequently that he needed tipping over the edge to make his final decision. Having said that only Lakaku would know if he would have signed without Kev's influence or not, but he's never come out and denied it

There is nothing wrong with having that agenda by the way. Im just saying its there.

Listen whatever, I strongly agree with you saying that he hasnt left anything in the club regarding the future. (I think it was you, I dont know, the quoting system on this forum is horrendous).

If it wasnt for Martinez showing some faith in Stones he would still be a 3M player as he wouldnt have played. But he was happy to put him in and let him do his thing. The reason he is worth so much is because of his footballing ability which Martinez lets him show (rightly or wrongly..) its not as if anyone wants him purely for his defensive ability is it?

Put it this way, if Martinez left us tomorrow he will have left the squad and the youth squad below it in a strong position. We are littered with young players with potential. Some of them may not pan out, others will. But to say that he has not left anything for the future is just plain wrong.

Of course Lukaku would have signed for us without Mirallas' influence. Why wouldnt he?

 

[Hibbertinho]

Stagnated might be a bit strong in terms of choice of word as it indicates something has gone bad.

I think it is fair to say that he has not progressed as well as he might have done?

There has still been too many times where his first touch resembles that of a baby elephant.

There have still been too many times where he is out muscled by people he should be flattening.

Still too many times when challenging in the air that it looks a bit on the half measure.

Still too many times where he has looked completely uninterested (regardless of why that may be).

Too many times where he has apparently gobbed off to the press when away with the national gig.

Ultimately a young lad who is still developing and learning in many respects – just doesn’t be appearing to learn them with this management/coaching team.

But ultimately still banging the goals in (thank the Gods) otherwise we would be stuffed.

And wouldn’t it be great to see what he could do if he stays and is developed further!

Agree with many of those points in regards to Lukaku - to be a bit more general though...

Barkley, Lukaku, Deulofeu - they're all sexy players on their day and they're all human, susceptible to this beast we call 'form'.

This season, the three of them have had about half a season of blistering ace-ness each.

Aside from someone who is a tactician, and not such a stubborn one at that; we need a man-manager to bring this form out of them over the course of a season, and know when to bench them/give them a go.

It's never that simple of course, and we can't be totally reliant on them. So bring some ample cover in/blood the young 'uns, too.

 

[mightymoyes]

There is nothing wrong with having that agenda by the way. Im just saying its there.

Listen whatever, I strongly agree with you saying that he hasnt left anything in the club regarding the future. (I think it was you, I dont know, the quoting system on this forum is horrendous).

If it wasnt for Martinez showing some faith in Stones he would still be a 3M player as he wouldnt have played. But he was happy to put him in and let him do his thing. The reason he is worth so much is because of his footballing ability which Martinez lets him show (rightly or wrongly..) its not as if anyone wants him purely for his defensive ability is it?

Put it this way, if Martinez left us tomorrow he will have left the squad and the youth squad below it in a strong position. We are littered with young players with potential. Some of them may not pan out, others will. But to say that he has not left anything for the future is just plain wrong.

Of course Lukaku would have signed for us without Mirallas' influence. Why wouldnt he?

how can you know that for sure? anyone could have come in instead of martinez and developed him and also developed a winning team around him. in all likelihood anyone semi-competent would have.

 

[Hibbertinho]

I quote "Put an extra 40M on Stones value', which would mean his value would be £43m. Again nice try at trying to put words into someones mouth

I'd argue that Stones value increase happened due to the lads ability, previous coaching, and he would have broken through regardless of whether Martinez was there or not. The entire back 4 has regressed under Martinez, and I've seen nothing to suggest he is capable of coaching defenders and improving them as players. So I disagree, he hasn't added 40m onto the players value, and since last season where the club valued him at this figured I'd argue that Martinez influence, or rather lack of coaching ability, has decreased stones value from your 43m estimation

Again you're making stuff up by trying to say I'm saying something I'm not, if we didn't need a manger we could happily stick with Martinez. As for having an agenda against him, I wanted him to succeed, so quite the opposite. His last two seasons where he's regressed the team quite badly is what I'm judging him against, and his obvious flaws and weaknesses. So if wanting the manger to go because I don't think he's up to the job is an agenda, then I guess I do have one.

If you don't think Mirallas played a key role in convincing Lakaku to come here, then I"m not sure why he wouldn't leave until he was convinced Lakaku would sign. Why would he need to broach the subject if it was nailed on? Why would he need to be convinced? I'm sure there were more factors involved in the decision making process, but I'd also contend based on the interviews and quotes that came out subsequently that he needed tipping over the edge to make his final decision. Having said that only Lakaku would know if he would have signed without Kev's influence or not, but he's never come out and denied it

I think Martinez is to be credited for giving Stones a go and showcasing his strength in bringing the ball out initially... and then conversely for not teaching him to reign it in and not benching him off when he so obviously needed to be - all to the team's detriment and to the detriment of the lad's ego/confidence/progress. I think the latter outweighs the former, personally.