Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Little Ralphy]

If only Jagielka could sort out our defence we'd be a lot better off. He's garbage as a leader.

It's not Jagielka's job to sort out the defence, it's Martinez and his coaching staff. For all the talk of Jags being a jellyfish or whatever you called him, in the last World Cup when England went out against Uruguay, who was it who stood up to the press after the game? Not gerrard who people who claim was a great captain, no he was hiding away out of the limelight for once, it was Jagielka who was tasked with facing the press at England's most difficult point.

Not sure what it is you have in for Jags but Jags is not the problem.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

@davek we'll just have to agree to disagree mate

Our defending is a massive issue and one Martinez needs to address IMO

A new defensive coach is essential and I've seen nothing argued by yourself or others to convince me otherwise

Again, I like Martinez and I think he can make this work, but he needs to address the defending first

Hopefully he does and we kick on to some success

And I'd like to thank you for the mature manner in which we've had this debate (That's sincere as well)

 

[eddy]

It's not Jagielka's job to sort out the defence, it's Martinez and his coaching staff. For all the talk of Jags being a jellyfish or whatever you called him, in the last World Cup when England went out against Uruguay, who was it who stood up to the press after the game? Not gerrard who people who claim was a great captain, no he was hiding away out of the limelight for once, it was Jagielka who was tasked with facing the press at England's most difficult point.

Not sure what it is you have in for Jags but Jags is not the problem.

Jags is great! simple as ..... Im not one for statistics but without Jags and Lukaku we would definitely be in the relegation zone !

 

[bluestevon]

@davek we'll just have to agree to disagree mate

Our defending is a massive issue and one Martinez needs to address IMO

A new defensive coach is essential and I've seen nothing argued by yourself or others to convince me otherwise

Again, I like Martinez and I think he can make this work, but he needs to address the defending first

Hopefully he does and we kick on to some success

And I'd like to thank you for the mature manner in which we've had this debate (That's sincere as well)

As MArtinez said in his itnerview today though mate, he's not inexperienced and he has been in this league for 7 years now so he knows what its about, he is incapable of fixing the defensive side because he is just not up to it, much like Moyes for example was not able to coach a team that could bang in 8-0 goals a season, most managers have faults in their make up, just for some its worse than others, and not being able to organise a team to be able to defend is a fatal one sadly

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

As MArtinez said in his itnerview today though mate, he's not inexperienced and he has been in this league for 7 years now so he knows what its about, he is incapable of fixing the defensive side because he is just not up to it, much like Moyes for example was not able to coach a team that could bang in 8-0 goals a season, most managers have faults in their make up, just for some its worse than others, and not being able to organise a team to be able to defend is a fatal one sadly

The bit in bold - i think its not so much he isn't up to it, more like he doesn't want to because it doesn't fit in with his vision of playing football. Call it stubbornness, whatever, he hasn't made an effort to change it in 10 years of being a manager - he isn't going to now.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

As MArtinez said in his itnerview today though mate, he's not inexperienced and he has been in this league for 7 years now so he knows what its about, he is incapable of fixing the defensive side because he is just not up to it, much like Moyes for example was not able to coach a team that could bang in 8-0 goals a season, most managers have faults in their make up, just for some its worse than others, and not being able to organise a team to be able to defend is a fatal one sadly

But what's stopping him bringing in someone to help out with that?

Brian Clough enjoyed the most success of his career when working with Peter Taylor for instance

Neither were ever as successful on their own as they were together, as each had their own strengths and weaknesses. They complimented each other and made up for the others deficiancies

Why can't Martinez just say "I'm out of my depth with this defending so I'll bring in a top defensive coach who can help me"?

Alex Ferguson wasn't winning all those titles on his own. He had help from guys like Brian Kidd, Carlose Queroz and Rene Mulenstein

Most successful managers know when to delegate

That's all Martinez has to do, delegate the defending, and he's golden IMO

Everything else he does is so good, he just needs a way to overcome the poor defending. He can do it if he puts his trust in someone else and shows some flexibility when it comes to his "vision"

 

[bluestevon]

The bit in bold - i think its not so much he isn't up to it, more like he doesn't want to because it doesn't fit in with his vision of playing football. Call it stubbornness, whatever, he hasn't made an effort to change it in 10 years of being a manager - he isn't going to now.

Can argue that mate, or can argue if you can't fix something because you are incapable then the easiest thing to do is pretend you have no problem or are too stubborn to do so, same end result like

 

[oldblue]

Mate, respectfully, if era's need defining do have a look at BOB's managerial record across the board. Then, genuinely, tell me how much more time you think he 'deserves'. Sounds snarky, apols, it's not meant that way, but how long d'ya give him?

Different managers probably deserve more or less time and I doubt anyone can ever say enough is enough and time it right. But seems fair enough to balance out where we are now with groundwork for the future. You can still come out on either side of the argument. I'm also not going to be swayed too much by raw stats on what's gone on in the past. Context is massive in this scenario.
In proving it's time for him to go or not I personally don't care in the slightest about one substitution so there seems to be a lot of balanced Blues getting sucked into an irrelevant debate in my eyes. If it's the final nail for some, fine. It wasn't for others. If you have already decided how you feel, fine too. In either case my gut feeling is that the bigger picture is lost while people are still banging on about one decision that to most wasn't even close to being the defining reason we lost. And losing is the real reason there's so much frustration.

 

[Little Ralphy]

@davek we'll just have to agree to disagree mate

Our defending is a massive issue and one Martinez needs to address IMO

A new defensive coach is essential and I've seen nothing argued by yourself or others to convince me otherwise

Again, I like Martinez and I think he can make this work, but he needs to address the defending first

Hopefully he does and we kick on to some success

And I'd like to thank you for the mature manner in which we've had this debate (That's sincere as well)

There is a problem there though mate. He uses his team to push in to attacking positions to help aid his forward play. In particular the full backs. A defensive coach would put a stop to this, and then you have to ask who is actually in charge? The defensive coach who wants certain players in certain positions to cut off space if the move breaks down, or to create a solid base, or the manager who wants those players further up the pitch to support his attack?

I'm not sure it's it'd be a healthy working environment for either of them, as Martinez' style as a manager is at odds with a solid defence.

Do you remember Kevin Keegan at Newcastle? Got slaughtered on MOTD every week for his defence, so he called Lawrenson on it and asked him to come and help. It didn't work out. Same as Steve Bould at Arsenal, he became assistant and everyone said he'd sort out the diffence. Then stories came out that Wenger wouldn't let Bould have the required input.

I posted in the other thread why I feel we're better away from home at defending and I don't believe it's organisation, it's just a by-product of being further back in the pitch and having more players there. It's exactly the same against the better sides at home.

 

[bluestevon]

But what's stopping him bringing in someone to help out with that?

Brian Clough enjoyed the most success of his career when working with Peter Taylor for instance

Neither were ever as successful on their own as they were together, as each had their own strengths and weaknesses

Why can't Martinez just say "I'm out of my depth with this defending so I'll bring in a top defensive coach who can help me"?

Alex Ferguson wasn't winning all those titles on his own. He had help from guys like Brian Kidd, Carlose Queroz and Rene Mulenstein

Most successful managers know when to delegate

That's all Martinez has to do, delegate the defending, and he's golden IMO

Everything else he does is so good, he just needs to fix that somehow

He does so now it's admitting that his entire phillosophy is a flawed one mate, also will undermine him rightly or wrongly in the players and medias eyes.

For example we appoint a new defensive coach and we are suddenly fighting for top 4 for a season - that defensive coach will take a lot of the credit and people with ego's don't like to share the credit, its why for every Taylor out their their will be ten managers who will surround themselves with yes men, Ultimately as well Cloughs ego got in the way and he was too stubborn to rectify it

Won't happen, if he didn't change all the wya to seeing a team relegated due to its shambolic defending mate he won't see the light 7 years into his top flight management career

 

[oldblue]

Stop blaming the fans.

This myth was exploded last week.

He ain't up to the job.

Simple as.

So people are saying he's defensive and not accepting any responsibility, but just saying that a full on Goodison will be exactly what they'll want to see is 'blaming the fans'.
And using phrases designed to make it sound like there's no other opinion out there is kind of childish and does hint at determination to be right when the bigger picture is turning up and getting behind the team even if you think there's a need for change.

 

[MikeH72]

It's not Jagielka's job to sort out the defence, it's Martinez and his coaching staff. For all the talk of Jags being a jellyfish or whatever you called him, in the last World Cup when England went out against Uruguay, who was it who stood up to the press after the game? Not gerrard who people who claim was a great captain, no he was hiding away out of the limelight for once, it was Jagielka who was tasked with facing the press at England's most difficult point.

Not sure what it is you have in for Jags but Jags is not the problem.

He has it in for Jags because he was a David Moyes signing

 

[oldblue]

I think he touches on that at the end (bar the jarg about Allen) that he is maybe a manager who sets in place a style that will get long-term success. I'm not saying that will definitely happen but I do think the chances of sustained success are much more likely now.

The problem is in the short-term he keeps making the same mistakes and it may be why somebody else has to come in and take it to the next level.

He deserves a fair crack though considering the amount of work put into transforming the squad and system and at first building on what Moyes had built in a league that has got more competitive in the last four years than it did in the previous 8 before that.

For me that time is three seasons and then re-assess. It seems obvious where the issues are and it shouldn't take much to change that. The question is whether he is capable of changing it for more than 4 or 5 games and then re-making the same mistakes, which will ultimately get us no where.

That's roughly how I feel. Maybe his role should be different but why not look at in balance and with a good squad in place and more coming through the ranks very little damage is being done.
There seems to be an 18 month to three year period where frustration kicks in. And it has done with poor and successful managers. So we'll have to see.

 

[bluewally]

I'll tell you "and what" - name me any Everton manager who's ever had to leave the job getting midtable and having two extensive cup runs in the same season....I'll give you a clue: none.

You and others are using a higher threshold to judge Martinez than other past Everton managers. The people in charge wont. Hard lines.

What happened to the last Everton manager who finished in the bottom half two years in a row?

 

[davek]

What happened to the last Everton manager who finished in the bottom half two years in a row?

"bottom half" - try "dancing on the trapdoor to the Championship". The comparison is risible.