Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Goat]

I'm not fond of quoting it, but if I dont resurrect it from Big Brothers vault of non-facts then it gets forgotten in all the irrational fumeage.

38 points is poor. Still, we've got those 11 games you mention to get another couple in order to pass the Moyes total of 2003/04...the season he was sacked...oh no, he wasn't was he?

You know why?
Before Moyes

15th
16th
13th
14th
17th

During Moyes

6th
7th
7th
8th
5th
5th

During Martinez
5th
11th
12th

Thats why.

 

[blulouie]

Yeah completely fair comparison between the squads of 03/04 and now.

That's like saying Moyes shouldn't have been fired from Unitex because he got a higher league position than when they played in the second division. An utterly pointless comparison.

Unitex....sounds like some new kind of spandex underwear

 

[riddick]

My view is simple enough: if it's business as usual at Everton, then a midtable finish and couple of SF appearances are easily enough to see him retained with a good margin to spare. If Moshiri is intent on getting his own manager in here then (barring a cup final appearance) he has the conditions to do that.

I have no reason to believe the latter scenario is in play and every reason to believe the status quo prevails.

davek: lowering expectations since 2014. Love how Moyes was such a failure being 5-7th all the time but Martinez being 12th and having cup runs that haven't accomplished anything yet is a great season. Such a hypocrite.

 

[toffee matt]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/e/everton/1870232.stm

^fair

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/walter-smiths-transfer-dealings-3559792

^ in full..

Most interesting thing their is that Phil McNulty has been doing exactly the same job for 14 years

 

[BoysInBlue]

Forum opinions, normally won't influence boardroom level decisions. The media influences them to an extent although not as much as you seem to think imo, otherwise wouldn't Man Utd have sacked LVH ages ago?

There's a power struggle going on behind the scenes at Utd. Worst kept secret in football.

Woodward wants to bring in Mourinho but Ferguson & Charlton don't think he's the right man. Hence the delay.

 

[Kiwi]

You know why?
Before Moyes

15th
16th
13th
14th
17th

During Moyes

6th
7th
7th
8th
5th
5th

During Martinez
5th
11th
12th

Thats why.

You may have missed out a few league positions for Old Gingernuts there

 

[BoysInBlue]

Prentice.

Lol.

Who recently got promoted and is now the Echo Sports Editor, replacing the departed Kopite, John Thompson.

Everything he wrote is true. It's the 2nd time in 2 weeks he's written an article comparing Martinez to Mike Walker, for those keeping score.

Sneer all you like davek, but from small acorns do mighty oaks grow. Losing home games all the time simply adds fertiliser, highly appropriate given we're hurtling towards the s***.

 

[BoysInBlue]

I'm not fond of quoting it, but if I dont resurrect it from Big Brothers vault of non-facts then it gets forgotten in all the irrational fumeage.

38 points is poor. Still, we've got those 11 games you mention to get another couple in order to pass the Moyes total of 2003/04...the season he was sacked...oh no, he wasn't was he?

Moyes wasn't sacked at the end of 03/04 because our standards were so much lower back then, plus we couldn't afford the compensation payout if we'd sacked him just 2 years into a 4 year contract. Especially since our finances were famously absolutely dire in the summer of 2004, culminating in the sale of Rooney to keep us afloat.

Just because our standards were lower back then doesn't justify or mean the same logic should be applied 12 years later.

 

[Carlito]

To be fair to @davek and his 72 Points Cup, he's the first to admit that Brendan Rodgers' second place in 2014 (84 points) was a much bigger achievement than the frankly embarrassing title that Alex Ferguson 'won' in 2011 (80 points - ha!).

 

[Gwladys St. Glory]

My view is simple enough: if it's business as usual at Everton, then a midtable finish and couple of SF appearances are easily enough to see him retained with a good margin to spare. If Moshiri is intent on getting his own manager in here then (barring a cup final appearance) he has the conditions to do that.

I have no reason to believe the latter scenario is in play and every reason to believe the status quo prevails.

Be interesting if a certain someone all of a sudden became a hardcase...

-girl +club

 

[JAYTALITY]

If you flip that argument and say the good defensive record in his first season had nothing to do with Moyes then why has Martinez been unable to replicate it in the following 2 seasons?

What a absolute waste of a comment, he certainly won't answer that. I've been reading a lot of pages and he's just selectively answering and picking out bits and bobs of the weaker points made towards him. Not good ones like that. But still not making good sense in the progress.

 

[Mrtallywacker]

Time to go Mr Martinez.


Job 38:2
Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

I wouldn't believe the date at the top of the article if it has his name next to it. He is damaged goods. A wrongun.

...how VERY odd, I feel absolutely all that about our very own pound-shop GUARDIOLA.

 

[Kendall's Dream]

Yes because before Martinez arrived all 4 of thos eplayers where junk and not rated at all...

Stones i will give him a lot of credit for bringing along fast - but the natural talent was plain from the start, and it can be argued that by not coaching him properly he is now well regressing as a defender
Lukaku - yup hardly like he banged in 16 league goals including a hat trick at old trafford for west brom before martinez - now who was that magnificient manager who had him at west brom - oh right it was pullis wasn't it
Barkley - most touted everton youngster since rooney
Deulofeu - was known as a potentially amazing talent and arguable if martinez has gotten anywhere near developing him to the player he could be, in fact the situation this season with him is mirroring his season with seville earily in fact

Kiev - wonder goals - errrm they absolutely mullered us to an embarresing degree in large part due to Martinez playing Alcaraz at cb - but according to the post game he played absolutely fine

So many wrong stats in that paragraph but it doesn't mean much. Lukaku at WBA couldn't even play two consecutive 90 mins, he came on as a sub vs tired defences and ran at them. Now he is bullying nearly all defences week in week out and is the 3rd highest goal scorer in the league.
And the Alcaraz situation - Stones was unfit (I think) so he had to play, RM isn't going to come out after the game and say he played awful would he? Plus Yarmolenko scored a beauty and their left back scored a 45 yard goal, yes we deserved to get beat but still..

Just give the man credit when credit is due

 

[davek]

It's a fair question Dave, but relatively easy to answer.

It is widely accepted that this group of players is the most talented group at Everton's disposal since the mid 1980's. Martinez of course must take credit for this, I acknowledge that totally.

Secondly this season we have seen Manchester City, United, Chelsea and Arsenal (perhaps to a lesser amount) underperformance and allow Leicester, Spurs and West Ham to challenge at levels beyond what you might expect their 'natural' position might be. The common factor amongst these three clubs is that they each have a management team which through tactical ability, and the ability to prepare and instil belief in their teams have created teams performing beyond their expected abilities.

However at Everton the absolute reverse has happened. Far from being greater than the sum of our parts we've become less than the sum of our parts. Tactically we are moribund and devoid of an ability to change the course of games. Mentally we are completely shot. We have no expectation of success on the pitch and we have become a "soft touch" - not a characteristic you'd ever expect to hear from Everton.

All of the above plus what will become rapidly very changed expectations of how we define success means Martinez' position is untenable. For all his good intent, and I think he's a deeply honourable man, he does not possess the necessary skills and therefore by the end of the season I believe he and his team will be released - with just cause.

We cant have it both ways here: we cant say the squad is as good as the 80s then in the same breath condemn the defence for being all at sea. "A GK needs to come in and right back and if Stones goes a couple of CBs"...that's the usual lament, but somehow Martinez has currently at his disposal the best squad for 35 years. It's a cracking attacking outfit, but forgive me for not buying completely into the view that it's a perfect hand that he has to play. He hasn't.

There's four places up for grabs and not even teams with the cash of United and City are guaranteed one of them...one of them wont get a CL spot. But Martinez spending a fraction on his squad has to get one of these places. Has to unless he wants the sack. It's Alice in Wonderland stuff.

I know I've said this to you before but it bears repeating: the talk of 'lack of skills' from non-professionals in relation to a manager who has Martinez's career cv is pure comedy. His achievements at different levels, not only in terms of results but the establishment of blueprints for all aspects of the playing side of a club, make a nonsense of the claim. The necessary skills you speak of seem to be holding his hands up and delegating to an outsider all matters concerning defence. This isn't the NFL. We dont operate our organisations in that way.

The bottom line here is that you weigh up whether his time here so far, including a very good first season and these two middling and (as yet) unproductive seaons in terms of results (though the matter of playing style and performance, imo, is another issue entirely) and you ask yourself if Everton are a club that appraises that overall effort and comes to the unavoidable conclusion that a dismissal is the natural next step. (Me? I look at it and think 'miles off'...and that's just now without making the next round of the cup.) And that is the way Everton the club and Everton the supporters would usually see things too. But not for Martinez apparently. No, Martinez is held accountable to a different set of criteria...or at least for many fans he is at least.