Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[RFUS]

Cheers.

I didn't think I'd moved the goalposts of the OP - I just didn't agree with the analogy.

I get the point he was making, and RFUS is a sensible, reasoned poster - but I don't think he was entirely correct on that as the players are more than capable of being able to effect the result.

You're right, players aren't robots. But they bought into Martinez's philosophy like we all did. When it appears to be flawed then it undermines whatever they do.

Fact is, we have the likes of Coleman, Jagielka and Baines who were defensively immense under a different manager, being part of the most hideously ineffective defence I can recall. I think that's a good basis for comparison and a fair stick to beat Martinez with, as these are players proven to be quality and proven to be good lads who care and put a shift in.

 

[BlueToff]

As I posted earlier mate, I genuinely believe R Martinez has 'lost the players'...they no longer believe in him. The cabin crew no longer care about the cockpit...there is precedence for this you know. A much, much better manager than R Martinez recently suffered similar experience at Chelsea...

I understand that but I don't think that reflects well on the players at all.

As I just responded to Smodger (who again chose to ignore my reasoned argument as my opinion differs to his/hers)

'I'm just stating the fact that the players are the ones on the pitch who have to perform - and thus must also take some (not all) of the blame for underperforming.

The classic response is 'well they've lost faith', and my answer to that would be that they are professionals (highly paid, at that) and should still perform to the best of their abilities for the fans, the club that pays their wages and - probably most relevant in this day and age - their own self-preservation and determination to be successful.'

 

[kithnou]

Well reasoned. Our problem is that we want to play like Barcelona and dominate the opposition at Goodison. But where Barca have goalscoring threats all over the pitch, World-class players at their peak and a finely-honed system we're still novices. Teams can come to our place, double up on Lukaku, congest the midfield and wait to pick us off.

Away from home we spring the counter attacks and it suits our players more. We played more conservatively against Chelsea and reaped the rewards. I think that we're afraid that if we invite the opposition on to us at Goodison rather than throwing the kitchen sink at them that the fans will criticise a perceived lack of adventure.

The league is still very tight. We could plausibly win at Old Trafford and draw level on points with Chelsea. We have two games in hand on seventh-placed Southampton. Win them both and we're only 3 points behind them and they still have to come to our place.

Leicester and Liverpool are the only sides above us in the league that we still have to play and they're both our favoured away fixtures.

You may want to take up politics after all that spin fluffity fluff there my man...

 

[BlueToff]

You're right, players aren't robots. But they bought into Martinez's philosophy like we all did. When it appears to be flawed then it undermines whatever they do.

Fact is, we have the likes of Coleman, Jagielka and Baines who were defensively immense under a different manager, being part of the most hideously ineffective defence I can recall. I think that's a good basis for comparison and a fair stick to beat Martinez with, as these are players proven to be quality and proven to be good lads who care and put a shift in.

I agree mate. It's fair to beat RM with.

Maybe I came across as too strong in my defence of him.

Again, I'm not saying overall he isn't responsible, as he is.

But I think if the players have 'lost faith' and can't now perform, then that does reflect badly on them.

 

[deipnosophist]

I understand that but I don't think that reflects well on the players at all.

As I just responded to Smodger (who again chose to ignore my reasoned argument as my opinion differs to his/hers)

'I'm just stating the fact that the players are the ones on the pitch who have to perform - and thus must also take some (not all) of the blame for underperforming.

The classic response is 'well they've lost faith', and my answer to that would be that they are professionals (highly paid, at that) and should still perform to the best of their abilities for the fans, the club that pays their wages and - probably most relevant in this day and age - their own self-preservation and determination to be successful.'

...horse and cart....and getting them in the right order

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

Yes but you blame him for everything.

Blame him for what he is at fault for - set pieces, bad subs etc etc there's plenty of them.

However, the players not putting in the effort and doing the simple things is on them.

Respectfully mate, I don't blame him for everything because that'd be grossly unfair, what I cannot - simply cannot accept though - is his stubborness and refusal to adapt during/heading into certain games. Nor can I accept the waffle that comes during pressers both pre & post match. I understand he has to be positive but there comes a time when he has to be accepting of his own accountability and, fact of the matter is, he very rarely is.

I genuinely feel, and have done for some time, that he is a very fortunate manager in the grand scheme of things. Do I think he's good enough for our club? Without question, no...no I don't. And I primarily based that on his failure to address his misgivings from the WIGAN days, he has carried the mentality over without adaption. It's almost like he's learnt nothing from it at all...and that scares me here, with him at the helm, because the same mistakes repeat & repeat & repeat...

We have a back-line of mostly international defenders that have seemingly lost the ability to defend. How does this happen? To go from a well-drilled unit to a group that often look like they've met in the car-park before the game? That's down to management for me, and a lack of conviction relating to an address of his defensive misgivings.

To repeat...he has the best group of footballers he's ever had at his disposal...and he's managed to take them backwards, so much so that the striker we've craved & cried for for so long is almost without question considering jumping ship.

 

[oldblue]

I'll take that as a no.

Wait and see and I'll be proven right re Niasse.

And nobody will care that you were. You won't win an award and the next time you judge a player for no real reason it'll be given just as little credence.
"Told you so" is a waste of time.

 

[Smodger]

I understand that but I don't think that reflects well on the players at all.

As I just responded to Smodger (who again chose to ignore my reasoned argument as my opinion differs to his/hers)

'I'm just stating the fact that the players are the ones on the pitch who have to perform - and thus must also take some (not all) of the blame for underperforming.

The classic response is 'well they've lost faith', and my answer to that would be that they are professionals (highly paid, at that) and should still perform to the best of their abilities for the fans, the club that pays their wages and - probably most relevant in this day and age - their own self-preservation and determination to be successful.'

I'm not ignoring you mate can i just ask you do you think martinez can turn this around ? I know he isn't just to blame but my point was he never takes any.

 

[BlueToff]

Respectfully mate, I don't blame him for everything because that'd be grossly unfair, what I cannot - simply cannot accept though - is his stubborness and refusal to adapt during/heading into certain games. Nor can I accept the waffle that comes during pressers both pre & post match. I understand he has to be positive but there comes a time when he has to be accepting of his own accountability and, fact of the matter is, he very rarely is.

I genuinely feel, and have done for some time, that he is a very fortunate manager in the grand scheme of things. Do I think he's good enough for our club? Without question, no...no I don't. And I primarily based that on his failure to address his misgivings from the WIGAN days, he has carried the mentality over without adaption. It's almost like he's learnt nothing from it at all...and that scares me here, with him at the helm, because the same mistakes repeat & repeat & repeat...

We have a back-line of mostly international defenders that have seemingly lost the ability to defend. How does this happen? To go from a well-drilled unit to a group that often look like they've met in the car-park before the game? That's down to management for me, and a lack of conviction relating to an address of his defensive misgivings.

To repeat...he has the best group of footballers he's ever had at his disposal...and he's managed to take them backwards, so much so that the striker we've craved & cried for for so long is almost without question considering jumping ship.

Yeh, my post was stupid - of course you don't blame him for everything so apologies.

I agree with you on his stubborness. It's needed in a manager but in this case I do feel it will be his downfall.

When he's conceded that we have to adapt slightly we've been much better for it and he's shown he can be a good manager.

 

[Khalekan]

Agreed, the post gets itself into a right mess.

Leicester and Liverpool the only sides left to play above us in the league???

At the moment

Watford, Bournemouth and Palace might well be above us by the time we play them.

 

[deipnosophist]

Goodnight everyone. It's past midnight here and I have attendances toward sleep.

Without desiring of lending fuel to any fire, might I just repair with parting comment :

Martinez is a snake oil salesman who pinches himself every night to believe he stole the job as manager of Everton Football Club.

 

[BlueToff]

I'm not ignoring you mate can i just ask you do you think martinez can turn this around ? I know he isn't just to blame but my point was he never takes any.

I'm seriously doubting he can turn it around.

The spell from January through to the beginning of March I was confident he had done - overall.

W.Ham was a huge step back and I'm now pretty convinced that the good games are just 'one offs' - which is why he is a good cup manager.

Consistently though teams have come to Goodison and easily played against us and he hasn't seen any way (when it seems so simple) of being able to counter that.

I want him to take responsibility and it's annoying that he doesn't.

My point was that the players also have to share some of the responsibility for the results and not being able to do the simple things that any professional footballers playing at the highest level should be able to do.

 

[kithnou]

Goodnight everyone. It's past midnight here and I have attendances toward sleep.

Without desiring of lending fuel to any fire, might I just repair with parting comment :

Martinez is a snake oil salesman who pinches himself every night to believe he stole the job as manager of Everton Football Club.

Off to bed as well. Seperate to his...

 

[DrEFC]

Actually, has he ever said- I set the team up wrong, or I take responsibility?

 

[royalblue66]

I would have more confidence of finishing on a high with Gaz Baz being in charge for the remainder of the Season,than That clown.