Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Ashtonian]

Depends on what you mean by youth players.

Barkley is the only player to really come through the youth system and he was around the fringes under moyes. Without his leg break he may have been further along the road.

The rest were bought for not a little money.

I don't think even Moyes would have spent £28m on a striker and not played him, Moyes bought stones with a view to playing him you'd have to think.

Galloway played out of necessity and was dropped once senior players became available.

Ok better worded, i wanted to see younger players in the team .

The previous manager dropped young players for no reason, played defenders in midfield rather than give a younger player a chance, and largely ignored the academy. As sheedy once said, his players would get a call that they were going on loan to scotland, and then he would never see them again.

when you see a team with Neville / Heitinga midfield you kinda want the younger players to come in and be part of it instead. so not just ross, but stones, del, rom, galloway, browning, robles (for a keeper) besic etc Younger players giving trust rather than treated like a liability in case they make a mistake.

Often Moyes would drop a youngster even before they made a mistake just in case they did, see duffy, vellios, barkley as examples.

 

[DrEFC]

I don't think you understand what I said.

There are people out there who have came out and blatantly said 'winning the cup is papering over the cracks' so let's say we win it there will still be people complaining about performance related issues or the manager.

And my reference to a political supporter basically means 'you cannot have an argument with somebody who believes a different political parties statement and you will never change their mind'

I understand your frustration as it can be hard to understand things on the Internet

Why pick racists then if you weren't trying to stir it up? End of the day some will think that a cup win will not excuse atrocious league form with a formidable first team available. They're entitled to. You may feel it does, that's fine. I think the tactics needed for a league campaign would probably have to involve more variability than currently shown. A knock out competition is different- there's only really value in a win- which plays into Bobby's hands. If a team sits and waits for a mistake, we're fodder. If a team bombard us with crosses, we're done for. That achilles heel originates from the set up, which is the responsibility of whom? Hope these things on the Internet aren't hard to understand either x

 

[Toffeelover]

Looking at the clubs and the players that are in our PL, then in my view it is the top league in Europe.

 

[DrEFC]

I think Southampton are a great example of changing managers successfully. I think they do look very carefully at upgrading with stability at the centre. I'd certainly have had no worries about bringing Koeman in ahead of Roberto. But we didn't.
What I'd be very wary of is a manager who buys a few league placings at the expense of our future. A lesser Mourinho who is keener on the adulation than establishing something to build on.
For instance I was desperate for us to bring in established experience at the back two seasons ago. But it may have been the wrong choice if it stopped younger players developing.
A good point there is the aging squad we were left with. I think Moyes was letting his own future distract from our long term aims.

Brilliant post. Hope it doesn't get lost in the bluster of this thread.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Jagilelka has been lambasted by me because of his lack of leadership and organising qualities, not because of his own game. Just a major point you completely missed out there in your rush to see a contradiction that wan't there. And so what Jagielka and Stones were in the team early on; my point was that a flatter back four and less adventurous FBs was the clue to our very decent early season form. And, btw, you're not suggesting are you that Stones wasn't correctly left out for his season turning into piss?

You're countering of my point regarding personnel operating in the back four up to the derby is a fair one: I'd said the three I mentioned had played together in some permutation in all 8 games. They hadn't. So I take that back. It was three, so a minority. What was a feature of the period up to the derby, however, was the amount of game time Galloway, Browning and to a lesser extent Oviedo got in that period. Also we had Funes Mori stepping into Coleman's position on one occasion. We cant do without that. If there's one thing that was demonstrated in that period is that we dont need the Coleman/Baines FB tandem to get results.

I don't get this latest line of argument. You praised Martinez to the hilt for bringing us into the 21st century with beautiful free flowing football, even claiming that results didn't matter as much. I could half buy it at times in the first season, I could sort of see what he was trying to do with the team.

Now what you're essentially advocating in order to get results is: scrapping our best full back pairing in prem history (there'll be no shortage of takers for these btw) as well as one of the best out and out young footballers (Stones) I've ever seen. In their place you want to see two centrebacks (Galloway and Browning) play out of position and stay in a flat back 4 with some 'leader' centreback in Stones' place. You'd then have two holding mids in front of that so that we could play counterattacking football.

In the same breath though you'll slam Leicester for kick and rush football and say we're playing football touched by the gods. Got to say mate a back 4 of Galloway Jags Mori and Browning won't be playing much togger. Lennon McCarthy and Clev are hardly flair players either (I rate Lennon very highly but he's not a David Silva type).

To me it sounds as though you've realised that the total football which is plan A (Stones, Deulofeu, Kone, overlapping fullbacks, front foot possession football) was failing in terms of results. So you're now advocating moving to a pragmatic counterattacking game with 4 centrebacks and 2 holding mids in order to get results. No doubt you'll still peddle the myth though that the football was brilliant as Browning was again lining up another long diagonal to Lukaku's head. Frankly it's the sort of team line up that would not have been out of place under Smith and is a massive step back from the standard of football we had under Moyes (creative midfielders, attacking full backs, front foot football).

 

[davek]

Obviously not true.

The cup is of massively less value than 17th in the league unless you win it, and even then it's only got value in terms of prestige.

If we get to the final of any domestic cup competition and lose, it was effectively all entirely pointless.

Lol.

You have no sense of football's rich tapestry. A philistine statement if ever there's been one and an insight into the ridiculous entitled mind set that currently ruins football.

 

[davek]

As I said you downgrade the league in order to suit your position. We know that. 12th is doing well by your standards.

12th isn't good, it'll be forgotten about if we win a trophy though. That is the fact of the matter.

 

[DrEFC]

Id take FA Cup over CL any day

A cup win or qualifying? This club is dying on its arse for a trophy. God yes the FA Cup in terms of here and now, but long term- CL has more benefits in terms of money and growth. Which isn't something I think is fair as it skews the playing field, but dems the breaks.
But yeah FA over CL qualification until we're actually capable of doing anything bar embarrassing ourselves in it.

 

[Mally77]

IF we win a trophy! We've not won it yet

 

[DrEFC]

So why aren't they performing? If they're that experienced they should have no problem should they?

Top rated workers change boss, productivity decreases, who gets the chop? Come on Dave. Like shooting fish in a barrel here.

 

[royalblue66]

12th isn't good, it'll be forgotten about if we win a trophy though. That is the fact of the matter.

It will be forgotten on the day,if we win it,and after it will be back to reality.

 

[davek]

It will be forgotten on the day,if we win it,and after it will be back to reality.

After it'll be back to where it will be anyway: preparing for next season and buying players to improve the defence especially...the unit that let us down and needs gutting.

 

[DrEFC]

12th isn't good, it'll be forgotten about if we win a trophy though. That is the fact of the matter.

12th is a steaming turd compared to our previous finishes, but you are right to a degree. Sod the league as long as we're safe if we get a shiny pot. I wouldn't be overjoyed if he stayed as we should at least showed ambition, but I'd still be there cheering on the team next season even if he was still at the helm. I'm there for Everton FC, like a loyal beaten housewife.

 

[davek]

Top rated workers change boss, productivity decreases, who gets the chop? Come on Dave. Like shooting fish in a barrel here.

Productivity increases from what to what?

These are the people who were part of a record braking season and may go on to with the cup. I'd say the focus should be on the players if the league form of late is not up to it. The manager is a proven winner. What have Baines, Jagielka, Coleman got in their medal drawer? Nothing.

I know who I'd conclude needs to look at themselves.

 

[vagant59]

As long as no one suggests that those who are fed up of Martinez don't want us to win the FA Cup (bar that one individual who would rather win the Derby! !)[/QUOTE
Win or lose in either game I will not be arsed as long as the team put in a performance