Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

If we play crap he needs to say it, he will at least gain more respect

This.

 

[The Penalty Box Dancer]

EVERYBODY will be happy with a cup win. It doesn't mask 2 years of horrendous league performances. Don't insult people's intelligence by assuming those who are fed up with it as akin to a right wing person.

I don't think you understand what I said.

There are people out there who have came out and blatantly said 'winning the cup is papering over the cracks' so let's say we win it there will still be people complaining about performance related issues or the manager.

And my reference to a political supporter basically means 'you cannot have an argument with somebody who believes a different political parties statement and you will never change their mind'

I understand your frustration as it can be hard to understand things on the Internet

 

[davek]

BTW Dave another of your favourite targets Jagielka - games he hasn't played 11 we conceded 18 in those games - 1.7 conceded per game

Heres another stat for you then mate, you've quoted a fair few back then so don't think you will mind this.

We have had 3 utter collapses this season in Bournmouth, Stoke and West Ham - noticable Baines didn't play in any of those 3 games, Jagielka missed 2 of them also

BTW Dave - pretty sure that tough start that people talked about was not just the first two months of fixtures but was the first 10 games - which would have included the games against Arsenal and United, putting your line before those two ofc does miss out two losses and 1 scored 5 conceded from the stats doesn't it?

just as an interesting point though, oviedo played 1 game in that run at the start of the season in the game Galloway missed - galloway played the other 9, and Browning played 3 games and one half against city

so as for the having two of Oviedo, galloway or Browning operating in the back 4 for the most part of it as you stated - no we didn't, we had out the first 8 games (including the derby) exactly 3 and one half games that had two of those in defence and we had 4 1/2 games without two of them playing, so basically your wrong.

But think i have everything now from you, Evertons defence is bad because Tyias Browning is injured is effectively your argument now LOL


OR here is another take on what happened mate, but you won't want to think this could be true, Jagielka played 90 minutes in every one of those first two months games and John Stones - yanno that bloke you reckon can't play cb and is a holding midfielder really, started the first 6 of them

Is Baines at anythign close to his best form and level for us - pobviously not, but the people who are trying everything they can do to try to hold him and to another extent Jagielka as responsible for the defensive problems in order to protect the only thing they care about at the club - the manager - is absolutely shameful, stats don't back any of it up mate, Baines has been more creative than the other options at fb - he has made as many 'defensive actions' as they have also, and the goals cocneded per game when he has played are the lowest than the other fb's.

You would make a fantastic, amazing, phenomenal manager though in the style of Rodgers and martinez mate, you have no compunction about throwing any player udner the bus regardless of the facts or stats that show you to be wrong

Jagilelka has been lambasted by me because of his lack of leadership and organising qualities, not because of his own game. Just a major point you completely missed out there in your rush to see a contradiction that wan't there. And so what Jagielka and Stones were in the team early on; my point was that a flatter back four and less adventurous FBs was the clue to our very decent early season form. And, btw, you're not suggesting are you that Stones wasn't correctly left out for his season turning into piss?

You're countering of my point regarding personnel operating in the back four up to the derby is a fair one: I'd said the three I mentioned had played together in some permutation in all 8 games. They hadn't. So I take that back. It was three, so a minority. What was a feature of the period up to the derby, however, was the amount of game time Galloway, Browning and to a lesser extent Oviedo got in that period. Also we had Funes Mori stepping into Coleman's position on one occasion. We cant do without that. If there's one thing that was demonstrated in that period is that we dont need the Coleman/Baines FB tandem to get results.

 

[neil999]

Jagilelka has been lambasted by me because of his lack of leadership and organising qualities, not because of his own game. Just a major point you completely missed out there in your rush to see a contradiction that wan't there. And so what Jagielka and Stones were in the team early on; my point was that a flatter back four and less adventurous FBs was the clue to our very decent early season form. And, btw, you're not suggesting are you that Stones wasn't correctly left out for his season turning into piss?

You're countering of my point regarding personnel operating in the back four up to the derby is a fair one: I'd said the three I mentioned had played together in some permutation in all 8 games. They hadn't. So I take that back. It was three, so a minority. What was a feature of the period up to the derby, however, was the amount of game time Galloway, Browning and to a lesser extent Oviedo got in that period. Also we had Funes Mori stepping into Coleman's position on one occasion. We cant do without that. If there's one thing that was demonstrated in that period is that we dont need the Coleman/Baines FB tandem to get results.

i wonder if the attempt to buy byram was part of this thinking, although im not sure if byram is more defensive minded than coleman

we deffo need another right back as competition for coleman, someone in the mould of azipilicueta would be good - solid defending being the primary remit but also decent with the ball

 

[davek]

Yes the point is winning stuff, I agree completely and again, to reiterate, I want us to win the cup in May.

My gripe is that this appears to be at the cost of league form, and the only way we will be able to attract top players is by getting into Europe consistently, and mainly through the league - otherwise I fear our best players will not stick around, or we will not attract good players, and it will be another 21 years before we get the next cup.

I want to win the FA Cup, I just fear it is at the expense of the league form.

If we win the cup all this league form stuff wont matter. The morale boost from a cup win (and presumably the cash boost from the new share holder) will ensure confidence and league form will return.

If there's anything more depressing than Everton supporters without a cup win to shout about for 21 years shrugging their shoulders at a cup win as if it were nothing, I dont know what it is. Apparently though, the Chelsea game in the previous round was a "must win" game...I wonder why if it's so inconsequential?

The cup is massive in english football and getting it a real achievement. The downgrading of it on this forum by some is merely a determination to give nothing to Martinez if he manages to steer us to it.


THAT's how pathetic things have become.

 

[bluewally]

I don't think you understand what I said.

There are people out there who have came out and blatantly said 'winning the cup is papering over the cracks' so let's say we win it there will still be people complaining about performance related issues or the manager.

And my reference to a political supporter basically means 'you cannot have an argument with somebody who believes a different political parties statement and you will never change their mind'

I understand your frustration as it can be hard to understand things on the Internet

It can be hard to understand things in real life too.

The only true indicator of a teams progress is the league table.

It is (barring dramatic changes) 38 games per season, 1 home 1 away against teams who have earned the right to play at that level.

The cup is a lottery where opposition is dependent on the luck of the draw and a good cup run must be measured by the capability of your opponents.

Yes to win a cup would be great but it has no relevance to an argument on the ability of any manager to progress a team to a higher level.

So papering over the cracks is exactly what a cup win would do.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with this but surely you must agree that the cracks are there?

 

[davek]

I'll remind you of this when we tamely get beat in the semi final. Again.

Sounds like you want it to happen.

Hopeless. Absolutely hopeless.

 

[bluewally]

If we win the cup all this league form stuff wont matter. The morale boost from a cup win (and presumably the cash boost from the new share holder) will ensure confidence and league form will return.

If there's anything more depressing than Everton supporters without a cup win to shout about for 21 years shrugging their shoulders at a cup win as if it were nothing, I dont know what it is. Apparently though, the Chelsea game in the previous round was a "must win" game...I wonder why if it's so inconsequential.

The cup is massive in english football and getting it a real achievement. The downgrading of it on this forum by some is merely a determination to give nothing to Martinez if he manages to steer us to it.


THAT's how pathetic things have become.

You take every argument to it's extreme in an attempt to strengthen your position. No one with any sense has said they would shrug their shoulders at a cup win as if it were nothing.

A cup win would be great. But it doesn't detract from the downward trend of our league performances.

The cup is great. But the league is greater. You are downgrading the league to suit your pro Martinez position because his ability to perform in the primary competition in the country is in serious doubt.

 

[Ashtonian]

If we win the cup all this league form stuff wont matter. The morale boost from a cup win (and presumably the cash boost from the new share holder) will ensure confidence and league form will return.

If there's anything more depressing than Everton supporters without a cup win to shout about for 21 years shrugging their shoulders at a cup win as if it were nothing, I dont know what it is. Apparently though, the Chelsea game in the previous round was a "must win" game...I wonder why if it's so inconsequential?

The cup is massive in english football and getting it a real achievement. The downgrading of it on this forum by some is merely a determination to give nothing to Martinez if he manages to steer us to it.


THAT's how pathetic things have become.

what is pathetic mate is being 12th with a 30 goals a season striker when his peers are in a title race.

what is pathetic is that we have 3 out of englands back 4 and yet we cant defend for 90 minutes.

whats pathetic is playing with two holding midfielders and not being able to keep enough goals out to win a game.

What is pathetic is that a club would happily watch their team decline and do nothing about it, then wonder why their best players are handing in transfer requests.

and above all else, what is pathetic is being below west brom, equal to bournemouth and miles behind a terrible liverpool team.

 

[davek]

i wonder if the attempt to buy byram was part of this thinking, although im not sure if byram is more defensive minded than coleman

we deffo need another right back as competition for coleman, someone in the mould of azipilicueta would be good - solid defending being the primary remit but also decent with the ball

Back four plus GK will be reconstituted in the summer. No question of that.

For me: out would go Baines and Stones. Coleman would just about be retained given his performances all told this season. Keep Jagileka but take the armband off him. Funes Mori and Galloway retain. Bring in a new RB cover and a LB. Bring in a CB who can lead and organise his defence and a top GK.

That would sort it.

 

[oldblue]

not necesserally true. when moyes left he left a aging squad and yet martinez benefitted from stones / barkely among the first team players. A new manager could well turn this mid table team into a winning one just by sureing up the defence.

the best example of replacing a manager in the league currently is Koeman for sure. Poch leaving them could have relegated them, yet he has survived selling his first team off for 2 years to keep them performing. Imagine what koeman could have achieved with the original squad before additions?

I think Southampton are a great example of changing managers successfully. I think they do look very carefully at upgrading with stability at the centre. I'd certainly have had no worries about bringing Koeman in ahead of Roberto. But we didn't.
What I'd be very wary of is a manager who buys a few league placings at the expense of our future. A lesser Mourinho who is keener on the adulation than establishing something to build on.
For instance I was desperate for us to bring in established experience at the back two seasons ago. But it may have been the wrong choice if it stopped younger players developing.
A good point there is the aging squad we were left with. I think Moyes was letting his own future distract from our long term aims.

 

[davek]

You take every argument to it's extreme in an attempt to strengthen your position. No one with any sense has said they would shrug their shoulders at a cup win as if it were nothing.
A cup win would be great. But it doesn't detract from the downward trend of our league performances.The cup is great. But the league is greater. You are downgrading the league to suit your pro Martinez position because his ability to perform in the primary competition in the country is in serious doubt.

Only makes sense and rings true if you get top four (actually, top three to avoid a qualifier).

 

[quasi modo]

BTW Dave another of your favourite targets Jagielka - games he hasn't played 11 we conceded 18 in those games - 1.7 conceded per game

Heres another stat for you then mate, you've quoted a fair few back then so don't think you will mind this.

We have had 3 utter collapses this season in Bournmouth, Stoke and West Ham - noticable Baines didn't play in any of those 3 games, Jagielka missed 2 of them also

BTW Dave - pretty sure that tough start that people talked about was not just the first two months of fixtures but was the first 10 games - which would have included the games against Arsenal and United, putting your line before those two ofc does miss out two losses and 1 scored 5 conceded from the stats doesn't it?

just as an interesting point though, oviedo played 1 game in that run at the start of the season in the game Galloway missed - galloway played the other 9, and Browning played 3 games and one half against city

so as for the having two of Oviedo, galloway or Browning operating in the back 4 for the most part of it as you stated - no we didn't, we had out the first 8 games (including the derby) exactly 3 and one half games that had two of those in defence and we had 4 1/2 games without two of them playing, so basically your wrong.

But think i have everything now from you, Evertons defence is bad because Tyias Browning is injured is effectively your argument now LOL


OR here is another take on what happened mate, but you won't want to think this could be true, Jagielka played 90 minutes in every one of those first two months games and John Stones - yanno that bloke you reckon can't play cb and is a holding midfielder really, started the first 6 of them

Is Baines at anythign close to his best form and level for us - pobviously not, but the people who are trying everything they can do to try to hold him and to another extent Jagielka as responsible for the defensive problems in order to protect the only thing they care about at the club - the manager - is absolutely shameful, stats don't back any of it up mate, Baines has been more creative than the other options at fb - he has made as many 'defensive actions' as they have also, and the goals cocneded per game when he has played are the lowest than the other fb's.

You would make a fantastic, amazing, phenomenal manager though in the style of Rodgers and martinez mate, you have no compunction about throwing any player udner the bus regardless of the facts or stats that show you to be wrong

 

[TheFinnFan]

Id take FA Cup over CL any day

 

[davek]

what is pathetic mate is being 12th with a 30 goals a season striker when his peers are in a title race.

what is pathetic is that we have 3 out of englands back 4 and yet we cant defend for 90 minutes.

whats pathetic is playing with two holding midfielders and not being able to keep enough goals out to win a game.

What is pathetic is that a club would happily watch their team decline and do nothing about it, then wonder why their best players are handing in transfer requests.

and above all else, what is pathetic is being below west brom, equal to bournemouth and miles behind a terrible liverpool team.

So why aren't they performing? If they're that experienced they should have no problem should they?