Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[davek]

I'm saying he's had enough time to turn it around, and the same mistakes, the same visible wilting and the same inconsistency that we've seen time & again will still be there IF he's given more time.

Results are NOT fine, and nor is our league position, given the quality of tools at his disposal. Given that lesser quality squads are doing far better, and look better equipped to maintain their form than us.

He's a recidivist, and HAS to go. You can't keep asking people to postpone judgement - they've been there & done that.

Well. I've countered this stuff from you for a few days now. All I'd say to you is this: if we make the final the issue of Martinez's future will be put to bed. If we dont win the Sf then there's still a lot Martinez has in his locker to keep his job. I wouldn't expect a football club to change its culture overnight because someone has rolled up to buy less than half of its shares...which seems to be the only fuel that powers the 'he has to go' theory.

 

[oldblue]

Saying a cup run isn't down to a bit of luck and the draw? You must be inventing the new wheel then mate, as everybody in football with half a brain knows that.

And where did I say it doesn't mean anything, kindly point that out please?

Not sure how people can take the stance that the cup is mainly luck but there's no chance that poor luck can alter our league position in any way.
Things should even out the more you play but there'll always be chance involved. Even if the league was a thousand games it's highly unlikely luck will have completely evened out

 

[Thomasc]

"...but nothing sometimes..."

Pretty much said it was nothing winning a Cup...save a bit of luck.

Guess we've just been horribly unlucky all these years. SMFH.

I obviously mean in getting to the final, not sure what your angle is here, I am 100% correct.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

(i) he lacks the ability to instil belief in his players, the evidence of increased mental fragility is not only evident on the pitch but in his post match comments:

"Clearly the psychological aspect of going into a game is not right at the moment. We feel we can let our fans down, that we’ve got something to lose…the doubts, the communication is not what it should be. And that’s something that’s affecting our scorelines."

"Our performance .......clearly shows we need to learn how to play at home in the league."

Definitive proof that martinez is the source/carrier/spreader of the low-expectation, low-morale contagion that he has infected the players & fans with.

Incapable of a rallying call. Like a (Decorated) colonel who hides in his command post while expecting his troops to do his bidding, but without his orders.

 

[Thomasc]

Not sure how people can take the stance that the cup is mainly luck but there's no chance that poor luck can alter our league position in any way.
Things should even out the more you play but there'll always be chance involved. Even if the league was a thousand games it's highly unlikely luck will have completely evened out

Drawing Dagenham and Carlisle plays a part don't you think? We could have drawn City away and been out in the 3rd round.

I appreciate under Martinez we have got to 2 semi finals, but the league is always more important.

 

[roydo]

You committed forum suicide sir. This is not a retractable postion for those wanting to be banned (@GrandOldTeam). Fall on that sword and give us your final words.

Stay on topic, y'know.

 

[chicoazul]

Stay on topic, y'know.

Sorry sir.

Martinez is underperforming.

 

[orly]

It's apt that you're back from the dead like our very own Easter story Mr @by god I'm a blue.

You are however three days too early.

Been out with my 6 year old daughter, I have a life beyond GOT.

Everything I wrote above is true and well you know it. You should be thanking me for taking a pragmatic view of the situation and not being a knee jerker.

Well I for one will not be Doubting Thomas[c] on the day of our Lord's return

And by Lord I mean el Fraudo for the sake of being on topic

 

[The Esk]

With respect, you've merely reposted there your thoughts from a day or two back and failed to respond to specific criticisms of them.

The overarching criticism you've failed to come near addressing is: why, all of a sudden, is Martinez tasked with reaching a higher bar to carry on in post than his predecessors, given that he's working in no better conditions vis-a-vis our competitiveness with those clubs around us?

It seems to me you and others are jumping a move ahead. Criticism for league form not being solid top ten? Yes, justified. His record overall in three seasons taking in all competitions? No, completely unjustified.

There's an attempt to smuggle in a standard here (with the aid of abstractions) that makes it 'apparent' that the manager is an obvious choice for dismissal, when our near history suggests that is complete nonsense.

David, I think there are two points to counter your argument - if there was steady progress on the pitch in absolute terms, ie results, the benefit of the doubt would be given by most fair minded people. However the reverse is true in terms of results.

The second point which you may argue is outside of Martinez' control is the open nature of this year's league and the fact that as I stated earlier lesser teams are competing for CL places and indeed the title itself. The fact we have performed so badly in such an open league is a major negative against Martinez and focuses the mind on his abilities to compete at this level.

Incidentally I repeated my criticisms of Martinez, one for the purposes of consistency (something you wished to see from Martinez' critics) and secondly because I actually believe them to be genuine and as yet unanswered.

 

[davek]

Just another media echoe chamber of the loud minority matty. GOT? -chamber, TW? chamber, Kipper? you bet your ass that's a chamber.

The brick, The Oak, the elm, the Winslow bunch of echo chambers the whole lot.

Ever hear that John Lennon lyric 'above us only sky'? poppycock, walk out the gaff, look up, is that darkness you see? -Chamber.

...who will all be dancing in the street if/when we get to Wembley.

Sound and fury mean nothing. Achieving things do.

 

[oldblue]

Drawing Dagenham and Carlisle plays a part don't you think? We could have drawn City away and been out in the 3rd round.

I appreciate under Martinez we have got to 2 semi finals, but the league is always more important.

Not what I said though was it. You need luck in who you draw and on the day. You also need to win every tie. No second chances.
Point I was making is that you can't highlight how chance is part of the cup without acknowledging it's a part of any competition. Even the league.

 

[orly]

...who will all be dancing in the street if/when we get to Wembley.

Sound and fury mean nothing. Achieving things do.

we've already got there David, and I'm not going to lie, there is no-one outside doing the two-step

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Well. I've countered this stuff from you for a few days now. All I'd say to you is this: if we make the final the issue of Martinez's future will be put to bed. If we dont win the Sf then there's still a lot Martinez has in his locker to keep his job. I wouldn't expect a football club to change its culture overnight because someone has rolled up to buy less than half of its shares...which seems to be the only fuel that powers the 'he has to go' theory.

You've countered nothing. You've obfuscated & gone around in circles; slightly changing tack each time. So I'll say this:

The final isn't good enough. WINNING the final - plus a convincing win at the barn just MIGHT earn him a ten game reprieve for next season (from myself at least) - but that's all it'd do. I've scant confidence he'll do one, let alone both.

I've seen & I know what they're capable of. Believe me - that's every bit as much a criticism and cynical viewpoint of a future under martinez as it is a compliment.

 

[Groucho]

we never looked remotely like winning a sausage in the 11 seasons he was here

Dave, we went 1-0 in an FA Cup final, that was pretty close, like, and we got 4th, but I agree that having winners in a team does not automatically mean they will be successful at every club. Nuno Valente and Phil Neville were CL winners after all.

To address your point of "why is he being held to standards that the previous incumbent wasn't held to", is interesting, however I wonder did he make a rod for his own back by agreeing with BK in his appointment press conference that he said "I will get you Champions League"? And don't forget, Moyes was complained at for winning the 7th place trophy etc, granted he did not get pilloried for not repeating his 4th place in 2005.

 

[JAYTALITY]

...who will all be dancing in the street if/when we get to Wembley.

Sound and fury mean nothing. Achieving things do.

I'll be dancing like a leprechaun on beak.