Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Woolly Blue]

Without ANY shadow of doubt those discussions have already taken place and continue to take place

I have no inside knowledge, but I'm assuming that those discussions would have been part of the due dilgence carried out by Moshiri's team.

 

[Ollie d]

A fair few of our starting eleven already are mate.

Joel Robles : Won the FA Cup at Wigan
Funes Mori : Won things at River Plate
Aaron Lennon : Won the League Cup at Spurs
James McCarthy : Won the FA Cup at Wigan
Tom Cleverley : Premier League medal at ManU
Gareth Barry : FA Cup and Premier League medals at City

Lukaku has won the Belgian League with Anderlecht and he aleady has a winners attitude

Baines, Coleman, Jagielka and Barkley have played most of their football for us, so, well, we know the story there.

Of our first eleven, I'd say winning the cup would give Barkley quite a bit more self belief, and would help Baines, Coleman and Jagielka shake off the background of plucky little Everton, which would be ace, but the core of our team are already winners, which makes our form and occassional mental fragility quite puzzling.

Aye agree but playing together and winning can make this squad grow together, think how the 85 team had massive belief after the cup win the year before. Lets get that mentality of winning and never say die.

 

[davek]

It's been going on for well over a season. I'd much prefer martinez wasn't handed the opportunity of allowing it to happen again next season. And there's been nothing to suggest it won't.
Absolutely nothing.
We've flattered to deceive in some of the games we've won this season, too. We're nowhere near the potential you make out. Potential comes with consistency. We haven't strung together three wins on the bounce in the league since April 2014...That's two whole YEARS.
It's not good enough. At all.

It's three seasons...in which time we've progressed the squad, developed a style of attacking open play, come 5th and reached two cup SFs (and hopefully much more).

Now, if you're saying 'could do better', I'd agree. We can do better in the league. No question.

If, on the other hand, you're saying "he's had enough time, the overall evidence suggests he wont do better than what's been done so far with extra cash", I disagree 100% because the evidence does NOT stack up in that direction. Not one bit of it.

I say again, off what this manager has done in three seasons here, it is collective hysteria for people to band together to agitate for his dismissal. It's daft beyond belief and I would doubt very much if anyone in a position of power at the club even sees it as an issue. Better league position, yes, they'd want that. The rest they are going to see as going fine.

 

[The Esk]

Returning to Martinez, the discussion as to whether he is our best PL manager is some what of a red herring. He can be the best we have had but still fall short of the requirements of someone suitable to meet stated objectives. "Best" is a relative term, and actually we need to deal in absolutes not relative measures.

In absolute terms Martinez has demonstrated he does not possess the necessary skills to manage a team consistently competing for the CL places.
I contend, and this has not been countered by anyone who believes Martinez to be the suitable candidate, that

(i) he lacks the ability to instil belief in his players, the evidence of increased mental fragility is not only evident on the pitch but in his post match comments:

"Clearly the psychological aspect of going into a game is not right at the moment. We feel we can let our fans down, that we’ve got something to lose…the doubts, the communication is not what it should be. And that’s something that’s affecting our scorelines."

"Our performance .......clearly shows we need to learn how to play at home in the league."

(ii) he lacks tactical awareness and the ability to change the course of a game through change of tactics or personnel,

and

(iii) he lacks the ability to organise a team defensively, and improve individual defenders.

Re comments as to the unrealistic and too lofty expectations put upon our manger, ie competing for CL qualification, why is that unrealistic and/or too lofty given the quality of players at our disposal, and the fact that lesser squads with more effective management and coaching are currently occupying 3 of the top 5 places in the Premier League?

 

[ilikecheese]

You've been harping on about 'kneejerk' and 'hysteria' all season david, but after the first ten games (which looked tricky, playing last season's top eight within that run IIRC) a thread was made about the next ten, and everyone was optimistic....And look what's happened since them first ten matches.

Whoo-hoo! We thrashed s'land & villa & didn't do sod-all else; until a last touch of the game winner against a relegation-doomed newcastle.

Marvellous.

It's been going on for well over a season. I'd much prefer martinez wasn't handed the opportunity of allowing it to happen again next season. And there's been nothing to suggest it won't.

Absolutely nothing.

We've flattered to deceive in some of the games we've won this season, too. We're nowhere near the potential you make out. Potential comes with consistency. We haven't strung together three wins on the bounce in the league since April 2014...That's two whole YEARS.

It's not good enough. At all.

I thought all we cared about was results...not how we got them. Can't have it both ways.

 

[ilikecheese]

Returning to Martinez, the discussion as to whether he is our best PL manager is some what of a red herring. He can be the best we have had but still fall short of the requirements of someone suitable to meet stated objectives. "Best" is a relative term, and actually we need to deal in absolutes not relative measures.

In absolute terms Martinez has demonstrated he does not possess the necessary skills to manage a team consistently competing for the CL places.
I contend, and this has not been countered by anyone who believes Martinez to be the suitable candidate, that

(i) he lacks the ability to instil belief in his players, the evidence of increased mental fragility is not only evident on the pitch but in his post match comments:

"Clearly the psychological aspect of going into a game is not right at the moment. We feel we can let our fans down, that we’ve got something to lose…the doubts, the communication is not what it should be. And that’s something that’s affecting our scorelines."

"Our performance .......clearly shows we need to learn how to play at home in the league."

(ii) he lacks tactical awareness and the ability to change the course of a game through change of tactics or personnel,

and

(iii) he lacks the ability to organise a team defensively, and improve individual defenders.

Re comments as to the unrealistic and too lofty expectations put upon our manger, ie competing for CL qualification, why is that unrealistic and/or too lofty given the quality of players at our disposal, and the fact that lesser squads with more effective management and coaching are currently occupying 3 of the top 5 places in the Premier League?

I'm sure you were feeling the same way when Moyes nearly got us relegated.

I disagree on all three points...not entirely mind, but he has shown those abilities at times. It's consistency in those things that is lacking.

Personally I think (especially if we win the Cup), that investment in time is just as important as investment in money.

I fear though that it's too late in this day and age and a change is likely the only solution to get the fans back supporting the team.

 

[Brennan]

I'm sure you were feeling the same way when Moyes nearly got us relegated.

I disagree on all three points...not entirely mind, but he has shown those abilities at times. It's consistency in those things that is lacking.

Personally I think (especially if we win the Cup), that investment in time is just as important as investment in money.

I fear though that it's too late in this day and age and a change is likely the only solution to get the fans back supporting the team.

Surely it's the lack of consistency which proves Esks point though ?

 

[matty1878]

West Ham chairman/gold saying they won't extend slavens contract till they know he's not a one season wonder lol.

Wonder who else should of did that as a club ..... No names!!!!!

 

[ilikecheese]

Surely it's the lack of consistency which proves Esks point though ?

Agree that consistency in those things are the problem. That said, I am willing to give him the opportunity to fix said problems.

 

[The Esk]

I fear though that it's too late in this day and age and a change is likely the only solution to get the fans back supporting the team.

I'm sure you are making a wider point, but from my own perspective I'll (like many blues) continue supporting the team and the manager at each of the matches I'm able to attend. However that does not and should not stop me or anyone else of being critical, particularly when I have the club's best interests at heart.

 

[oldblue]

Returning to Martinez, the discussion as to whether he is our best PL manager is some what of a red herring. He can be the best we have had but still fall short of the requirements of someone suitable to meet stated objectives. "Best" is a relative term, and actually we need to deal in absolutes not relative measures.

In absolute terms Martinez has demonstrated he does not possess the necessary skills to manage a team consistently competing for the CL places.
I contend, and this has not been countered by anyone who believes Martinez to be the suitable candidate, that

(i) he lacks the ability to instil belief in his players, the evidence of increased mental fragility is not only evident on the pitch but in his post match comments:

"Clearly the psychological aspect of going into a game is not right at the moment. We feel we can let our fans down, that we’ve got something to lose…the doubts, the communication is not what it should be. And that’s something that’s affecting our scorelines."

"Our performance .......clearly shows we need to learn how to play at home in the league."

(ii) he lacks tactical awareness and the ability to change the course of a game through change of tactics or personnel,

and

(iii) he lacks the ability to organise a team defensively, and improve individual defenders.

Re comments as to the unrealistic and too lofty expectations put upon our manger, ie competing for CL qualification, why is that unrealistic and/or too lofty given the quality of players at our disposal, and the fact that lesser squads with more effective management and coaching are currently occupying 3 of the top 5 places in the Premier League?

Suppose my feeling is that I've not seen enough evidence of all three points. I'd argue we've seen him instil belief on one level. Hard to know right at the moment how he can instil enough belief in many of them that they can outplay anyone on their day, but this doesn't translate into enough belief that they can kill games off without literally being out of sight on the scoresheet. Could just be inexperience or lack of leaders on the pitch. Or the manager. Could also just be one of those things that just suddenly happens.
Second point I think is currently slightly skewered by the first point. And although we've got quality on the bench not sure there's variety. Jury's out for me.
Point three. Fair enough. Not even gonna attempt that one. Except to say we'll end up with a manager with flaws whoever we get in and you've got to hope this flaw is balanced out both on the coaching staff and with playing staff.

 

[ilikecheese]

I'm sure you are making a wider point, but from my own perspective I'll (like many blues) continue supporting the team and the manager at each of the matches I'm able to attend. However that does not and should not stop me or anyone else of being critical, particularly when I have the club's best interests at heart.

Sorry I don't think that came out entirely right. I just feel that if we don't make a change the atmosphere at the ground will only get worse.

 

[The Esk]

Sorry I don't think that came out entirely right. I just feel that if we don't make a change the atmosphere at the ground will only get worse.

Fair enough mate.

 

[vagant59]

Suppose my feeling is that I've not seen enough evidence of all three points. I'd argue we've seen him instil belief on one level. Hard to know right at the moment how he can instil enough belief in many of them that they can outplay anyone on their day, but this doesn't translate into enough belief that they can kill games off without literally being out of sight on the scoresheet. Could just be inexperience or lack of leaders on the pitch. Or the manager. Could also just be one of those things that just suddenly happens.
Second point I think is currently slightly skewered by the first point. And although we've got quality on the bench not sure there's variety. Jury's out for me.
Point three. Fair enough. Not even gonna attempt that one. Except to say we'll end up with a manager with flaws whoever we get in and you've got to hope this flaw is balanced out both on the coaching staff and with playing staff.

Why am I reading the above in triplicate?

 

[Groucho]

I'm sure you were feeling the same way when Moyes nearly got us relegated.

I disagree on all three points...not entirely mind, but he has shown those abilities at times. It's consistency in those things that is lacking.

Personally I think (especially if we win the Cup), that investment in time is just as important as investment in money.

I fear though that it's too late in this day and age and a change is likely the only solution to get the fans back supporting the team.

I'm sure you are making a wider point, but from my own perspective I'll (like many blues) continue supporting the team and the manager at each of the matches I'm able to attend. However that does not and should not stop me or anyone else of being critical, particularly when I have the club's best interests at heart.

As Esk says (and I semi-hinted at last night), my support for Everton is unwavering regardless.


I do however have doubts over the skills that the manager possesses - but that does not hamper my support for Everton. And if Martinez wins the cup great. I don't hate the fella, I just doubt he will take us forward. We can question him but still like the man as a person you know. And we can be unhappy with the situation but still support the team.