Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

Martinez in or out?

  • In

  • Out

  • Getting splinters eating cheese on toast on the fence


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He played him way longer than any sensible coach would have done given his form.

It's been clear for the past two years that he needed moving on.

You can't twist it into some sort of positive that he eventually dropped him when he was basically left with no choice.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying he gave Howard a new contract and must have felt the need to justify that - wrongly, imo. However, to latterly acknowledge that it was a mistake by benching then binning him is to his credit.
 
I don't really understand what this means sir

It means Barkley will perform to a certain level even without decent coaching based on his natural talent which is there for all to see except Warnock. I think he would perform more consistently with a better coach. The fact that Barkely has had a good season is more about his natural talent than any positive contribution that Bobby is making although it's impossible to prove either way. Barkley is still pretty tactically naive in my opinion. Sometimes the game just passes him by. Anyway else we know who fits this description?
 
I can't speak for BlueWally, but I wouldn't be. I'd be two-faced, sing his name with plenty of gusto, but wouldn't be that arsed if he was to leave.

If I was in effective charge of this club, if I hadn't already, I'd be tasking a team with identifying, and maybe even sounding out possible replacements.

There's a lot of talk in the myriad of Martinez threads about the last two league seasons form, the 72 points in the first season, the possibility of winning a trophy, how we're often boss in attack, but clueless in defence, but most of that is either looking back, or only looking forward a few weeks.

If Moshiri is making money available this Summer then he'll want to be sure that there's noone obviously better than Martinez to spend that cash. If his team identifies someone who's an upgrade on Martinez who's available, then hanging onto Bobby, even after a cup win would make little sense.

Now I don't know much about managers outside the Premier League and whether there are significantly better options out there, but one thing I do know, the appointment of Martinez was made in what seemed to be a very amateurish fashion, and the remit then was just a safe pair of hands. That remit seems to have changed, so I'd be amazed if getting a replacement in hasn't, or isn't, being seriously considered.

Contradiction is a great choice of word for a thread about Martinez really.

Like you say, he's done some very good stuff, and some very bad stuff. He's won a trophy, and got relegated. He's got our highest ever points total in the PL but is more than likely leading us to 2 bottom half finishes for the first time in over a decade. We're pretty damn good going forward but pretty damn bad defending (in a way).

As i've said before, i think there are several reasons for us throwing away points like we have been. I don't want to say we are bad at defending as i don't think thats strictly true in an overall sense, we have all good defenders and have put in plenty of decent defensive displays in the last 2 (and 3) seasons.

Tim Howard was an issue, he was replaced and we somewhat improved but still threw away a 2 goal lead, Joel was an improvement but an even better keeper would make us a better team. It's pretty obvious from everything we've seen and read that Martinez places way more emphasis on attacking than defending, particularly defending set pieces and crosses. So we concede some goals that could be prevented by being more well drilled at defending those, sort that out and we'd be a better team.

We could get better defenders, do that and we'd be a better team.

But i think the most important issue which would see the biggest improvement is simply about tactics and the way we play. Defensive shape and discipline, holding your position, keeping it tight, always pressuring the opposition to win the ball back. All things we do at times but not often enough.

When we've got the ball the whole team seems to attack and it's led to us scoring a lot of very good goals. But when we lose the ball too many players are out of position, too many players don't press to win it back, too many players seem to have license to roam around the pitch and get forward with little regard for what happens if we lose the ball.

Espeically it seems at home when we have a lead. We just leave too many gaps and keep trying to score more goals rather than concentrate of not conceding any.

Its just a case of the managers beliefs, his philosophy if you will. It's pretty clear how Martinez wants his teams to play football so whilst he's proven me wrong on issues in the past, and hopefully will again, i just can't see him changing his core ethic of playing football and ever getting his teams to shut up shop to keep hold of a lead rather than try to score more.

And as you said in your last point, as i've also said before, if the people responsible for hiring and firing the manager think the current one isn't up the standard, and that there is an available replacement who they think would do a better job than they should make the change. Regardless of whether he wins a trophy or not.
 
...decisive? Respectfully mate it took Christ knows how many games and a potentially faux-injury before he acted.

If he'd swooped into action when it become apparent that TH was in uber-slide then I'd praise him hugely. But he didn't, he quite damagingly hung onto him and not only did TIMMY keep his place he was also HUGELY praised by RM when everyone - including yerself, David - could see there was a prob.

That said, he now seems to have realised this was a whopper as mistakes go. Took a while though...and I often wonder if he'd have benched him early doors perhaps it'd have made TH knuckle down and work his big plums off toward getting back to something like he was. But we'll never know eh...
...but what was the alternative? W're not Chelsea and have a choice between Courtois and Begovic. Robles was very ropey even last season when he came in around Christmas and did fairly well. He wasn't a no brainer replacement for Howard. I acknowledge that the summer just gone was the time to replace him and he didn't. But, as said, the feller has two seasons left on his contract. It can have been the easiest thing in the world to stand him down and basically fire him. Conceivably it could still be carrying on next season with Robles as our declared #1 and Howard his understudy. But it's been decisively dealt with and we can go and get a very good starting keeper in the summer.
 

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying he gave Howard a new contract and must have felt the need to justify that - wrongly, imo. However, to latterly acknowledge that it was a mistake by benching then binning him is to his credit.

Wisdom loooong after the fact is NOT to his credit, david - It's the EXACT opposite.

You avert from the danger either immediately or asap after spotting it....You don't hope it'll turn out nice again like george bleedin' formby.
 
I'd ask you where would Stoke be without Butland, or Southampton without Frazer Forster, or United without De Gea, or Chelsea without Courtois.

Those GKs keep scoring down and give defenders confidence that if they balls it up they have a reasonably good chance of it not being fatal. For all Robles steadiness, he's not top class.

What we need most of all though is a leader and organiser. A Terry type. I think Dave Watson was the last player who really opened his mouth in the heart of an Everton defence and got discipline into it. Managers on the sidelines cant do that. Players on the pitch do.

SHOCKER - but absolutely agree Dave. It's struck me lately - and as horrible as they are - TERRY/NOBLE et al & a portion of the teams each play for...all gobby, all shouty, all argue decisions and get in both opposition and referee faces (not that I condone that like...much)...much pointing and rant...

And I'd be happy with a bit of that, not to their appalling level, but just something, sometimes to look like they're arsed. I like the JAG, a decent player...but man, open yer fuppin' gob sometimes and have a shout...

You could teach him that Dave, be the YODA to his mutey SKYWALKER?
 
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying he gave Howard a new contract and must have felt the need to justify that - wrongly, imo. However, to latterly acknowledge that it was a mistake by benching then binning him is to his credit.

He had no choice to bench him. He had a metaphorical gun to his head at that point because any more mistakes would have seen the fans in open revolt.
 
Contradiction is a great choice of word for a thread about Martinez really.

Like you say, he's done some very good stuff, and some very bad stuff. He's won a trophy, and got relegated. He's got our highest ever points total in the PL but is more than likely leading us to 2 bottom half finishes for the first time in over a decade. We're pretty damn good going forward but pretty damn bad defending (in a way).

As i've said before, i think there are several reasons for us throwing away points like we have been. I don't want to say we are bad at defending as i don't think thats strictly true in an overall sense, we have all good defenders and have put in plenty of decent defensive displays in the last 2 (and 3) seasons.

Tim Howard was an issue, he was replaced and we somewhat improved but still threw away a 2 goal lead, Joel was an improvement but an even better keeper would make us a better team. It's pretty obvious from everything we've seen and read that Martinez places way more emphasis on attacking than defending, particularly defending set pieces and crosses. So we concede some goals that could be prevented by being more well drilled at defending those, sort that out and we'd be a better team.

We could get better defenders, do that and we'd be a better team.

But i think the most important issue which would see the biggest improvement is simply about tactics and the way we play. Defensive shape and discipline, holding your position, keeping it tight, always pressuring the opposition to win the ball back. All things we do at times but not often enough.

When we've got the ball the whole team seems to attack and it's led to us scoring a lot of very good goals. But when we lose the ball too many players are out of position, too many players don't press to win it back, too many players seem to have license to roam around the pitch and get forward with little regard for what happens if we lose the ball.

Espeically it seems at home when we have a lead. We just leave too many gaps and keep trying to score more goals rather than concentrate of not conceding any.

Its just a case of the managers beliefs, his philosophy if you will. It's pretty clear how Martinez wants his teams to play football so whilst he's proven me wrong on issues in the past, and hopefully will again, i just can't see him changing his core ethic of playing football and ever getting his teams to shut up shop to keep hold of a lead rather than try to score more.

And as you said in your last point, as i've also said before, if the people responsible for hiring and firing the manager think the current one isn't up the standard, and that there is an available replacement who they think would do a better job than they should make the change. Regardless of whether he wins a trophy or not.

Sleek...a post of much BOSSNESS...;)
 

I can't speak for BlueWally, but I wouldn't be. I'd be two-faced, sing his name with plenty of gusto, but wouldn't be that arsed if he was to leave.

If I was in effective charge of this club, if I hadn't already, I'd be tasking a team with identifying, and maybe even sounding out possible replacements.

There's a lot of talk in the myriad of Martinez threads about the last two league seasons form, the 72 points in the first season, the possibility of winning a trophy, how we're often boss in attack, but clueless in defence, but most of that is either looking back, or only looking forward a few weeks.

If Moshiri is making money available this Summer then he'll want to be sure that there's noone obviously better than Martinez to spend that cash. If his team identifies someone who's an upgrade on Martinez who's available, then hanging onto Bobby, even after a cup win would make little sense.

Now I don't know much about managers outside the Premier League and whether there are significantly better options out there, but one thing I do know, the appointment of Martinez was made in what seemed to be a very amateurish fashion, and the remit then was just a safe pair of hands. That remit seems to have changed, so I'd be amazed if getting a replacement in hasn't, or isn't, being seriously considered.
There'd be no circumstances under which an Everton manager winning its first trophy after 21 years would be sackd. That is something that (if you just extricate yourself from all the forum fume and counter fume you allude to there) can be clearly seen as a non-starter.

As for next season: What would you be getting as a replacement? If there's much more cash to spend, how can it be concluded that Martinez (who spends very well) couldn't be the one to use that to rocket us into a position he's had us in previously during his time here?

I have to laugh at some of the conclusions of Martinez right now, you;d think he was capable of managing at about the level of the Liverpool Business House League. He's been here three season and failure is being called on a man who had us genuinely in the hunt for a CL spot with a fantastic first season and one who this season has had us at Wembley gates in one domestic cup and in through them in the other one.

Until a manager of Everton is spending serious cash, that ^^^ record is nowhere near that of any Everton manager who you could say deserved to be dismissed.

There's a hysteria taken hold and it's painful to watch.
 

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