Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[JAYTALITY]

Is this the Martinez thread now for all his threads? Anyway just seen another poll on toffee pleb lol 75% want him gone

So it's like the whole fans base has had enough exept @davek of course.

Just another media echoe chamber of the loud minority matty. GOT? -chamber, TW? chamber, Kipper? you bet your ass that's a chamber.

The brick, The Oak, the elm, the Winslow bunch of echo chambers the whole lot.

Ever hear that John Lennon lyric 'above us only sky'? poppycock, walk out the gaff, look up, is that darkness you see? -Chamber.

 

[Thomasc]

A cup win does not mask the other problems, ask Wigan fans.

It's an achievement to win a cup, but nothing sometimes other than luck of the draw and negotiating a couple of tricky ties.

Bournemouth fielded a much weakened side against us in the cup, so you could say the only tricky game so far was a below par Chelsea, even then we just scraped through.

However, if we were to win the cup and say finish 7th or 8th, a few might be prepared to change their stance on him. Below that should be deemed not good enough at Everton. We cannot sit by and watch teams like Stoke, West Ham, Southampton and Swansea overtake us in our league standings and just shrug it off.

We have no divine right to be up there, but most people in football expect is to be up there.

 

[ilikecheese]

As Esk says (and I semi-hinted at last night), my support for Everton is unwavering regardless.


I do however have doubts over the skills that the manager possesses - but that does not hamper my support for Everton. And if Martinez wins the cup great. I don't hate the fella, I just doubt he will take us forward. We can question him but still like the man as a person you know. And we can be unhappy with the situation but still support the team.

I revised my statement in response to Esk.

 

[davek]

Returning to Martinez, the discussion as to whether he is our best PL manager is some what of a red herring. He can be the best we have had but still fall short of the requirements of someone suitable to meet stated objectives. "Best" is a relative term, and actually we need to deal in absolutes not relative measures.

In absolute terms Martinez has demonstrated he does not possess the necessary skills to manage a team consistently competing for the CL places.
I contend, and this has not been countered by anyone who believes Martinez to be the suitable candidate, that

(i) he lacks the ability to instil belief in his players, the evidence of increased mental fragility is not only evident on the pitch but in his post match comments:

"Clearly the psychological aspect of going into a game is not right at the moment. We feel we can let our fans down, that we’ve got something to lose…the doubts, the communication is not what it should be. And that’s something that’s affecting our scorelines."

"Our performance .......clearly shows we need to learn how to play at home in the league."

(ii) he lacks tactical awareness and the ability to change the course of a game through change of tactics or personnel,

and

(iii) he lacks the ability to organise a team defensively, and improve individual defenders.

Re comments as to the unrealistic and too lofty expectations put upon our manger, ie competing for CL qualification, why is that unrealistic and/or too lofty given the quality of players at our disposal, and the fact that lesser squads with more effective management and coaching are currently occupying 3 of the top 5 places in the Premier League?

With respect, you've merely reposted there your thoughts from a day or two back and failed to respond to specific criticisms of them.

The overarching criticism you've failed to come near addressing is: why, all of a sudden, is Martinez tasked with reaching a higher bar to carry on in post than his predecessors, given that he's working in no better conditions vis-a-vis our competitiveness with those clubs around us?

It seems to me you and others are jumping a move ahead. Criticism for league form not being solid top ten? Yes, justified. His record overall in three seasons taking in all competitions? No, completely unjustified.

There's an attempt to smuggle in a standard here (with the aid of abstractions) that makes it 'apparent' that the manager is an obvious choice for dismissal, when our near history suggests that is complete nonsense.

 

[chicoazul]

A cup win does not mask the other problems, ask Wigan fans.

It's an achievement to win a cup, but nothing sometimes other than luck of the draw and negotiating a couple of tricky ties.

Bournemouth fielded a much weakened side against us in the cup, so you could say the only tricky game so far was a below par Chelsea, even then we just scraped through.

However, if we were to win the cup and say finish 7th or 8th, a few might be prepared to change their stance on him. Below that should be deemed not good enough at Everton. We cannot sit by and watch teams like Stoke, West Ham, Southampton and Swansea overtake us in our league standings and just shrug it off.

We have no divine right to be up there, but most people in football expect is to be up there.

It's apt that you're back from the dead like our very own Easter story Mr @by god I'm a blue.

You are however three days too early.

 

[ilikecheese]

A cup win does not mask the other problems, ask Wigan fans.

It's an achievement to win a cup, but nothing sometimes other than luck of the draw and negotiating a couple of tricky ties.

Bournemouth fielded a much weakened side against us in the cup, so you could say the only tricky game so far was a below par Chelsea, even then we just scraped through.

However, if we were to win the cup and say finish 7th or 8th, a few might be prepared to change their stance on him. Below that should be deemed not good enough at Everton. We cannot sit by and watch teams like Stoke, West Ham, Southampton and Swansea overtake us in our league standings and just shrug it off.

We have no divine right to be up there, but most people in football expect is to be up there.

Backhanded slaps AOTS.

A cup win is an achievement...yet it doesn't really mean anything

We beat Bournemouth and Chelsea...but we were lucky

 

[Goat]

Sorry I don't think that came out entirely right. I just feel that if we don't make a change the atmosphere at the ground will only get worse.

Thats cos the fans arent idiots, they can spot a fraud from miles.

 

[Thomasc]

It's apt that you're back from the dead like our very own Easter story Mr @by god I'm a blue.

You are however three days too early.

Been out with my 6 year old daughter, I have a life beyond GOT.

Everything I wrote above is true and well you know it. You should be thanking me for taking a pragmatic view of the situation and not being a knee jerker.

 

[oldblue]

Why am I reading the above in triplicate?

Didn't I sort that. My phone been buffering all day and convincing me things haven't happened when they have

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

It's three seasons...in which time we've progressed the squad, developed a style of attacking open play, come 5th and reached two cup SFs (and hopefully much more).

Now, if you're saying 'could do better', I'd agree. We can do better in the league. No question.

If, on the other hand, you're saying "he's had enough time, the overall evidence suggests he wont do better than what's been done so far with extra cash", I disagree 100% because the evidence does NOT stack up in that direction. Not one bit of it.

I say again, off what this manager has done in three seasons here, it is collective hysteria for people to band together to agitate for his dismissal. It's daft beyond belief and I would doubt very much if anyone in a position of power at the club even sees it as an issue. Better league position, yes, they'd want that. The rest they are going to see as going fine.

I'm saying he's had enough time to turn it around, and the same mistakes, the same visible wilting and the same inconsistency that we've seen time & again will still be there IF he's given more time.

Results are NOT fine, and nor is our league position, given the quality of tools at his disposal. Given that lesser quality squads are doing far better, and look better equipped to maintain their form than us.

He's a recidivist, and HAS to go. You can't keep asking people to postpone judgement - they've been there & done that.

 

[chicoazul]

Been out with my 6 year old daughter, I have a life beyond GOT.

Everything I wrote above is true and well you know it. You should be thanking me for taking a pragmatic view of the situation and not being a knee jerker.

You committed forum suicide sir. This is not a retractable postion for those wanting to be banned (@GrandOldTeam). Fall on that sword and give us your final words.

 

[Thomasc]

Backhanded slaps AOTS.

A cup win is an achievement...yet it doesn't really mean anything

We beat Bournemouth and Chelsea...but we were lucky

Saying a cup run isn't down to a bit of luck and the draw? You must be inventing the new wheel then mate, as everybody in football with half a brain knows that.

And where did I say it doesn't mean anything, kindly point that out please?

 

[davek]

A fair few of our starting eleven already are mate.

Joel Robles : Won the FA Cup at Wigan
Funes Mori : Won things at River Plate
Aaron Lennon : Won the League Cup at Spurs
James McCarthy : Won the FA Cup at Wigan
Tom Cleverley : Premier League medal at ManU
Gareth Barry : FA Cup and Premier League medals at City

Lukaku has won the Belgian League with Anderlecht and he aleady has a winners attitude

Baines, Coleman, Jagielka and Barkley have played most of their football for us, so, well, we know the story there.

Of our first eleven, I'd say winning the cup would give Barkley quite a bit more self belief, and would help Baines, Coleman and Jagielka shake off the background of plucky little Everton, which would be ace, but the core of our team are already winners, which makes our form and occassional mental fragility quite puzzling.

All our squad under Moyes were internationals and we never looked remotely like winning a sausage in the 11 seasons he was here. United, Chelsea and Arsenal all show fragility and none will pick up a trophy this season by the looks of it - and they are bristling with billions of pounds worth of talent and international experience, and of players with CL and WC winning experience.

In short: it doesn't necessarily mean a thing if you have individuals who have been winners.

 

[ilikecheese]

Saying a cup run isn't down to a bit of luck and the draw? You must be inventing the new wheel then mate, as everybody in football with half a brain knows that.
And where did I say it doesn't mean anything, kindly point that out please?

"...but nothing sometimes..."

Pretty much said it was nothing winning a Cup...save a bit of luck.

Guess we've just been horribly unlucky all these years. SMFH.

 

[JAYTALITY]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying he gave Howard a new contract and must have felt the need to justify that - wrongly, imo. However, to latterly acknowledge that it was a mistake by benching then binning him is to his credit.

Wow, it's remarkably similar to that new and improved ridiculous contract extension Bill afforded Martinez. Your logic fits our manager situation perfectly. Spot on mate. You have opened my mind up to how things are.