Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[ilikecheese]

Dave, we went 1-0 in an FA Cup final, that was pretty close, like

From about 30 seconds in to the full 90 we never looked like we'd win that game.

 

[Groucho]

From about 30 seconds in to the full 90 we never looked like we'd win that game.

This is true, but detracts from the context of the quote it replies to.

 

[Thomasc]

Not what I said though was it. You need luck in who you draw and on the day. You also need to win every tie. No second chances.
Point I was making is that you can't highlight how chance is part of the cup without acknowledging it's a part of any competition. Even the league.

More so because of the luck of the draw of course in the cup.

You can have bad luck in the league, I actually think there was a spell of games around City semi final time when every deflection went against us, things just weren't happening for us.

However 2 seasons of poor league form isn't down to luck.

 

[oldblue]

More so because of the luck of the draw of course in the cup.

You can have bad luck in the league, I actually think there was a spell of games around City semi final time when every deflection went against us, things just weren't happening for us.

However 2 seasons of poor league form isn't down to luck.

Except I'd say the general consensus has been our forms not been poor this season, but results haven't matched our performance. Enough of this could be down to poor luck that we are looking at seventh or higher and the dynamics change for many.

 

[davek]

David, I think there are two points to counter your argument - if there was steady progress on the pitch in absolute terms, ie results, the benefit of the doubt would be given by most fair minded people. However the reverse is true in terms of results.

The second point which you may argue is outside of Martinez' control is the open nature of this year's league and the fact that as I stated earlier lesser teams are competing for CL places and indeed the title itself. The fact we have performed so badly in such an open league is a major negative against Martinez and focuses the mind on his abilities to compete at this level.

Incidentally I repeated my criticisms of Martinez, one for the purposes of consistency (something you wished to see from Martinez' critics) and secondly because I actually believe them to be genuine and as yet unanswered.

You've ignored the time element: he's been here a relatively short period by this club's standards (Walker aside). He's been here three seasons and can point to hitting targets in all three seasons:

first season, the obvious 5th place finish
second season, an extensive run in Europe
third season, the best cup record in the country over the two domestic competitions

...but they are to be ignored because, let's be totally honest about this, home league form has been very poor.

And that is just the results side. Then you have to factor in his ability to build the squad from what he inherited to the level of quality now there - a quality that you expect regular CL qualification from (or at least contention for), and the money spent accomplishing this is minimal.

There is your progress, and in a very short period of time too.

That ^^^ can never be the grounds for a dismissal. And it certainly hasn't been in the past at this club...which is why I asked you to tell me why now, and why Martinez. There is no justification for it, and recourse to contestable judgements concerning such woolly stuff as 'skill-sets', and 'mental fragilities' just wont wash.

 

[oldblue]

From about 30 seconds in to the full 90 we never looked like we'd win that game.

This is the horrible truth. Even at one nil it felt like we'd just riled them. Things are better. I'm convinced.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

However 2 seasons of poor league form isn't down to luck.

No mate - not all down to luck.

We've had

• Referee decisions against us
• The fans casing the team, affecting confidence
• Injuries to key players at key times
• That Mirallas penalty
• That Lukaku penalty
• Them fans encroaching onto the pitch at bournemouth
• Moshiri buying his stake
• The grass being too long in the second half
• Terrorist atrocities
• Alien abductions

And many, many more

Sounds like an advert for a k-tel record, I know, but how I wish some people would change the record.

 

[davek]

we've already got there David, and I'm not going to lie, there is no-one outside doing the two-step

...I noticed the complete lack of celebration after the Chelsea game...hold on...

 

[davek]

You've countered nothing. You've obfuscated & gone around in circles; slightly changing tack each time. So I'll say this:

The final isn't good enough. WINNING the final - plus a convincing win at the barn just MIGHT earn him a ten game reprieve for next season (from myself at least) - but that's all it'd do. I've scant confidence he'll do one, let alone both.

I've seen & I know what they're capable of. Believe me - that's every bit as much a criticism and cynical viewpoint of a future under martinez as it is a compliment.

Ha Ha Ha.

Go and enjoy the internationals mate. Switch off for a while. It's getting to you.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Ha Ha Ha.

Go and enjoy the internationals mate. Switch off for a while. It's getting to you.

If you say so.

I'm here all week, mate. Do yer best, because your worst isn't much to write home about.

 

[bluewally]

Not true. I remember most doubting that he'd bench him a few months back, but he did. And now we have the announcement he's to be released. Was he wrong to give Howard a further season to prove he was completely shot? Yes, probably. But he has been decisive putting that wrong right.

He didn't bench him initially. He was injured

 

[roydo]

first season, the obvious 5th place finish
second season, an extensive run in Europe
third season, the best cup record in the country over the two domestic competitions

First season, a fusion of his and Moyes side(s).
Second season. Poor league position.
Third season Poor league position. So far.

Lob in his Wigan league finishes, and an unfortunate picture emerges.

When he is on it, he is terrific. When he isnt, it is horrific.

And as I say, ad nauseum, would be delighted to be vaulted.

 

[catcherintherye]

You've ignored the time element: he's been here a relatively short period by this club's standards (Walker aside). He's been here three seasons and can point to hitting targets in all three seasons:

first season, the obvious 5th place finish
second season, an extensive run in Europe
third season, the best cup record in the country over the two domestic competitions

...but they are to be ignored because, let's be totally honest about this, home league form has been very poor.

And that is just the results side. Then you have to factor in his ability to build the squad from what he inherited to the level of quality now there - a quality that you expect regular CL qualification from (or at least contention for), and the money spent accomplishing this is minimal.

There is your progress, and in a very short period of time too.

That ^^^ can never be the grounds for a dismissal. And it certainly hasn't been in the past at this club...which is why I asked you to tell me why now, and why Martinez. There is no justification for it, and recourse to contestable judgements concerning such woolly stuff as 'skill-sets', and 'mental fragilities' just wont wash.

I do wonder how far the introduction of Moshiri is central to people turning on Martinez. A lot will depend on his ambition. If he is to back the club to the extent we are led to believe, it would hard to see how this season and last would be seen as acceptable. That is still an if though.

I think people have to be honest. My old man was Moyes worst critic at the end, and hated how he didn't play younger players, didn't play attacking football, didn't do much in Europe and never got us anywhere in the cups. He was very happy to sacrifice a bit of league form to improve those areas. When presented with that though, a lot of the fan base (including him) don't like it.

All the while we had Kenwright it was difficult to see Everton being competitive in challenging for trophies, and the best chance we had was a bit of a maverick manager who excelled in big games but in all honesty lacked consistency to replicate that across a season. I think thats a reasonable description of Martinez. Ultimately while we were under Kenwrights control that was about as good as it got.

If we go in another direction and fund a manager far more there will be a question opened about whether we need a more consistent manager and in turn a question whether Martinez can provide this.

I've always wanted Martinez to succeed and I still want him to succeed. He is selling a unique and incredible story, but I am a little doubtful whether it can ever work? Do you think he can ever have us competing for the top 4/title with the right backing? Is it a lack of finance holding him back from doing so? If he can what has held us back the last two seasons? Is it reasonable for us to have such expectations? Can anyone else have us in the top 4 or do we have too lofty expectations?

All these are questions that do need to be answered. I am not having a go. I genuinely want him to be a success. I am not sure he can have us doing what Spurs have done this season though. Do you think he will ever be able to do this?

 

[davek]

Dave, we went 1-0 in an FA Cup final, that was pretty close, like, and we got 4th, but I agree that having winners in a team does not automatically mean they will be successful at every club. Nuno Valente and Phil Neville were CL winners after all.

To address your point of "why is he being held to standards that the previous incumbent wasn't held to", is interesting, however I wonder did he make a rod for his own back by agreeing with BK in his appointment press conference that he said "I will get you Champions League"? And don't forget, Moyes was complained at for winning the 7th place trophy etc, granted he did not get pilloried for not repeating his 4th place in 2005.

Moyes was attacked but never seriously was there a view he had to go because of 7th place. he was attacked for not having the bollocks to do exactly what Martinez does: be bold and take games by the scruff and win them with style.

As for Martinez making a rod for his own back with the CL spot comment: no, I dont think he did. If he said it to BK he should have kept that to himself, nowt to do with RM...and I doubt very much he;d have put a time limitation of three seasons on it.

 

[bluewally]

You've ignored the time element: he's been here a relatively short period by this club's standards (Walker aside). He's been here three seasons and can point to hitting targets in all three seasons:

first season, the obvious 5th place finish
second season, an extensive run in Europe
third season, the best cup record in the country over the two domestic competitions

...but they are to be ignored because, let's be totally honest about this, home league form has been very poor.

And that is just the results side. Then you have to factor in his ability to build the squad from what he inherited to the level of quality now there - a quality that you expect regular CL qualification from (or at least contention for), and the money spent accomplishing this is minimal.

There is your progress, and in a very short period of time too.

That ^^^ can never be the grounds for a dismissal. And it certainly hasn't been in the past at this club...which is why I asked you to tell me why now, and why Martinez. There is no justification for it, and recourse to contestable judgements concerning such woolly stuff as 'skill-sets', and 'mental fragilities' just wont wash.

Dave you have absolutely no idea what the targets are but to assume the targets aren't based around league performance is absolute nonsense