Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[mkrudden]

More teams can AFFORD a 20+ striker than HAVE a 20+ striker.

That's a VERY important thing for all of you who want to sell Rom need to remember.

If the budget does change (I will believe it when I see it) then I dispute your contention we have to wait until 17/18. Other clubs have got CL players before they qualified for the CL. Hell look at Teixeira and the rest of them that went to China. Oscar allegedly almost went to China for 75m and I'm supposed to sell Lukaku because we have no hope of attracting CL players without the CL? Doesn't add up.

Often "I want to play in the Champions League" means "I want more money."

Your logic for selling Lukaku relies on us having world class players supplying him. Why don't we just sell those players too though? Isn't everything you've said true for them too?

We tried for DECADES before Rom to buy a striker. We had more money than most teams in the world. We failed. We failed until we stepped up to the plate and paid huge money and it was touch and go to get him here even then.

That anyone wants to go back to that period I cannot comprehend.

15 goals sounds like it's close to 20+ but it's not. It's a long way away. Here is why:

More players can score 15 goals a season than 20. A lot more. When you have a 20+ guy you start off with a fairly huge advantage over your opponents. They have to find midfield goals just to get even with you.

Given your stated scenario of world class players supplying a striker I'd suggest a 10 goal striker for a normal team might get 15 with Del/Yarm.

So now all we need to find is some bang average striker who can usually muster 10 if he plays in every game. Surround him with enough talent and he gets 15 now!

Lots of teams can get the 10-15 guy.

Hell Niasse can probably get 15 if he played all year with those players. Let's just sell Rom and not replace him at all. Pure profit baby!
.

For starters, I don't "want" to sell RL. I said there is an inevitability because he wants CL next season. We can't offer that. If he goes, it's about who we replace him with. With 40-60mil burning a hole in our pocket, we can do a job.

And it's this point which you seemingly have ignored when talking about the past.

"We tried for DECADES before Rom to buy a striker. We had more money than most teams in the world. We failed. We failed until we stepped up to the plate and paid huge money and it was touch and go to get him here even then.

That anyone wants to go back to that period I cannot comprehend."

Yes. We did. With no money. What do you expect to buy when you have nothing in your wallet? You have to take punts:

Beckford.
Jelavic
Bent
Johnson

To name just four below 10mil purchases.

When we made money through sales, we brought in Yakubu. Had an atrocious not occurred, we would have got 3/4 years of consistent goalscoring from him. His previous record suggested that.

Bony was an example of someone who has consistently scored goals. When you're richer than rich like city, you don't generally buy a player if he is cack. Bony isn't cack. His record suggests he will get 15/20 goals a season.

"Hell Niasse can probably get 15 if he played all year with those players. Let's just sell Rom and not replace him at all. Pure profit baby!"

Again, you've misunderstood. My assertion was that, under the previous model, based on signing youngsters and developing them, selling them if they want to leave, a 30mil profit in 2 years is excellent business and shows the model works. Kudos to the manager.

If we can entice RL to stay, brilliant. Ideal scenario. I personally think top 4 within RM's first four seasons was unrealistic thus I'd always envisaged losing RL as part of the rebuilding. That's just me.

 

[bluestevon]

I agree with that post, because it underlines in spades the exact point I've been making (and having to make) over and over: that Martinez is being judged by a bar set higher than all predecessors.

It's not on. Have the past two seasons in the PL been disappointing? Yes. Has, overall, the manager's record here been the stuff that get Everton managers sacked? No, not at all. Three seasons = PL best total and two SFs spots (and the chance to go further).

NO Everton manager would EVER have faced questioning in the past on that record. You and others want to judge him with a measuring stick never used before? Fine. I'll argue continue to consistently argue that the criteria only changes when any Everton manager is given the kind of wedge currently being talked of for future transfer windows.

That's only right and proper.

the thing is mate how can we be slagged off and criticised for judging a manager by the standards he actually set himself to be judged by? see the paradox of the matter?

He himself reminded us that as a club with out history we should aim for and demand more than just plodding along safe but nothing special, for the bar he set himself and asked us to judge him on effectively he has fallen way way short, and i agree as a fan base we for far too long for one reason or another have just settled for being this nice gentleman club - contracts for life for players and staff if they want them, accepting the role as plucky little everton

he made the rod for his own back mate, motives and his ambition is to be lauded, but if you set yourself up to do something - you need to achieve it or else you can't hold anyone else to blame for the consequences

 

[ianefc]

I have a feeling a lot of people would still see 6th as stagnating. And with Romelu's impending exit, there would be a lot of nervy fans as there is now. A cup may have been Roberto's only way of winning us over this season.

At this point I think your final sentence is Spot on. Without it, wow, the summer will be miserable.

 

[Prevenger17]

At this point I think your final sentence is Spot on. Without it, wow, the summer will be miserable.

It certainly will.


*Prays for final against Watford reserves

 

[oldblue]

[QUOTitE="Lanolin, post: 4335131, member: 33980"]None of them are the same thing. The only two vaguely similar ones are mentions of our home form, but they relate to different aspects and show different contexts.

Barry having a great season is very much a positive, but the fact that we are still heavily reliant on him going into what may well be the final season of his career is undoubtedly concerning. It's unlikely that we can replace him like for like so i would have liked to see a progression in how we play to prevent this having a major impact, but our latest game shows we're a long way from that.

If you don't think blowing a 2 goal lead in a semi final is a downside then i think you have very, very, very low expectations of the team you support. The fact that our team was cheaper did not comfort me on my way home from the Etihad, and the fact that our team had been more expensive than all the ones we beat on the way to the semi would kind of take away any pleasure i'd felt in getting that far even if i was so minded.

Sorry, what do you want me to do? I'm using examples to show that the point you made was wrong, and you're telling me I'm not allowed to use examples?

You used the argument that winning the cup would attract top players. I challenged the viewpoint by pointing that the last team to win the cup without being one of the game's superpowers didn't seem to get this memo. I also used the previous two finalists just to give a bit more context. If you like, I can go back to the last team from outside the big boys before Wigan - Portsmouth. Again, not sure all these European players were sat at home dreaming of playing for Pompey while they were watching that.[/QUOTE]
So you think we're on a par with Wigan and Hull? I am not sure winning the cup will attract anyone. Equally I'm not sure regular finishes between fifth and eighth do either. As you say, establishing yourself over the years does. Other than that I'd say it's down to our profile, how much opportunity they'll get and whether they like the manager and style he plays.
You disagree. Fair enough but you haven't proved anything but that.
You've listed moments you weren't happy with to an overall review that included good and bad. I loved how we played against City in the first leg. I loved beating Chelsea. I loved Kone getting a hat trick. I loved the Lennon goal against West Ham. I loved the Southampton game. I loved Rom scoring in consecutive games. I loved Stones staying. I've loved seeing players going past full backs on a regular basis. I loved Cleverley grabbing the winner against Newcastle. I love we have a great chance of winning the Fa cup
Been downsides but you've listed them so need for me to.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Compared to winning our first trophy in 21 years, the league carries little to no significance for me at all.

You'd change your tune if we were in west ham's position. They're going for both, no doubt. Same applies to untied. The only reason you think that way is because we've been mid-table shabbite all season, and have very little hope of a top 5 place - and certainly no hope of a top 4 one.

No excuse for not wanting to do as well as possible in the league - regardless of present position.

None at all.

 

[oldblue]

You want him to stay as do others and that's absolutely fine but those that want him to stay should respect those that would like him to leave, again I must stress that is 65% of Evertonians on this forum have lost faith, patience and love for the man.

I'm really not sure what this paragraph means. Are you suggesting that because there is 65% per cent of people on an online forum saying he should leave that nobody should disagree. I don't want him to stay indefinitely, just not convinced he should now.
Are you saying it's disrespectful if people don't accept they are deluded because they don't agree with you?

 

[Prevenger17]

You'd change your tune if we were in west ham's position.

But even then Dixie, the only place I'd trade for an FA Cup win is 1st. If they both fail to get top 4 and we win the FA Cup, do you think their season would be considered better?

 

[oldblue]

The only positives of this season mate are that we got favourable draws in the cups, soon as we got city we were dumped out, likewise had we got Arsenal rather than Chelsea most likely we would be sat here with the season over.

I want a cup more than anyone, but the cups should come with a strong league campaign not as an alternative. 2 seasons he's taken a top side and made them a bottom half club that can't defend/hold on to leads. The sooner he's gone and moshiri hooks Kenwright and shows some ambition the better.

For too long this club has been a boys club, no pressure on BK meant no pressure on Elstone, that then meant no pressure on the manager and so on and so fourth. I wish we were a business club who had ambition not just to make up the numbers, tired of having West ham and Stoke fans rip us to pieces as they outperform us, all this thanks to the job for the boys mentality that has existed at this club for many a year now. Under Moyes when things were going relatively well it worked but now we need ruthless decisions.

Yeah it's all been bad. Nothing good.
And why not throw in something that didn't happen too. It was that defeat to Arsenal in the cup that must have influenced a lot of people

 

[PhilEFC]

This defence of Martinez is embarrassing. If it was the Kopites, we'd be laughing at them keeping him on. He's the same as Rodgers.

He has been found out as not being good enough. His tactics are one dimensional, he has a good squad which he can't get the best out of, and he shoe horns players into positions which effectively holds the team back (Cleverley/Kone wide left).

The league form especially at Goodison is enough to get anyone sacked. He's tried to blame everyone but himself for the results, even insinuating it was the fans why we are gash at Goodison. I cringe at some of his comments, the latest being it was one off against Arsenal.

He doesn't deserve any loyalty.

 

[DrEFC]

But even then Dixie, the only place I'd trade for an FA Cup win is 1st. If they both fail to get top 4 and we win the FA Cup, do you think their season would be considered better?

Depends Prev, but big assumptions there re: where teams will finish. Any team would be pissed off not to win the cup and not get CL if they looked like both were on the cards at this stage of the season?
Do you remember giving a toss about Portsmouth winning the Cup? Did you think they were gonna overtake us/sign better players and the like? Likewise Portsmouth fans probably didn't care for our league position, they had a cup. Players want CL/Europe also, us fans give more priority to the cup.
Cheering on England tonight bro?

 

[oldblue]

This defence of Martinez is embarrassing. If it was the Kopites, we'd be laughing at them keeping him on. He's the same as Rodgers.

He has been found out as not being good enough. His tactics are one dimensional, he has a good squad which he can't get the best out of, and he shoe horns players into positions which effectively holds the team back (Cleverley/Kone wide left).

The league form especially at Goodison is enough to get anyone sacked. He's tried to blame everyone but himself for the results, even insinuating it was the fans why we are gash at Goodison. I cringe at some of his comments, the latest being it was one off against Arsenal.

He doesn't deserve any loyalty.

Personally I think the defence of Martinez is perfectly readable. Not a moment of embarrassment. Don't agree with it all but it's palatable and far from embarrassing I feel.

 

[Prevenger17]

Players want CL/Europe also, us fans give more priority to the cup.

I can't deny that. But being a fan and not a player I want that cup. All the hypothetical scenarios, apart from winning the league, are secondary to winning the FA Cup imo.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

But even then Dixie, the only place I'd trade for an FA Cup win is 1st. If they both fail to get top 4 and we win the FA Cup, do you think their season would be considered better?

Well they're the ones in that position. And west ham's last trophy was 36 years ago...I think they've got as much as us to go for, don't you? Think they'll forfeit their position in either competition?

No, me neither. So why should it be ok for us....5th, 12th, or where have ya?

We haven't even been close to the top of the league this season. That's no excuse to throw the toys out the pram, metaphorically.

We're still two difficult games from a trophy, and just the one previous show (That we're just as capable of as we are a victory) from a complete write-off.

A complete write-off. From the glorious 72pts , to total obscurity...'Also rans'. Just like them at the barn

And with the squad he's got, as well...Let that sink in. That's the top & bottom of it.

The pro-martinez should bear that in mind. I sincerely hope it doesn't come to pass; but should it do so then I really do hope they will cease to defend what will be unequivocal proof of the indefensible.

 

[Raging Clue Right Now]

My word. Nearly 500 want him in. Shake your heads.