Roberto Martinez discussion

[Carlito]

If people think that Martinez is 'a divisive figure' then they really should get out more.
I think what you mean to say is that some people never wanted him in the first place (fair enough, their opinion) so he can do no right in their eyes and they aren't shy about telling everyone at the slightest opportunity.
It's not about Bobby and his management, it's about some posters relationship with the club.
Some just pay their money and go because they believe it's a licence to go shout a lot and get everyday frustration out of their system. I seriously hope these people are banned from having pets. Others have this bizarre expectation that we should be winning 100% of all matches, never give the ball away once, Tim should stop every attempt on goal because tgats his job and if the opposition scores then he's not doing it and Rom should score from ever half chance because that's what we pay him a lot of money to do. They think that if we don't win 5-0/6-0 every week then someone/everyone is to blame. This also is obviously unrealistic and shows a massive misunderstanding of the game. There IS another team out there you know who are also trying to win, that's why it's a sport.

Players, Management are human, they WILL make mistakes for a variety of reasons, everyone does. Some will make them again and again, yes I get that it's frustrating. But constant unrealistic sniping is pointless, especially when there are so many good things going on about the club at the moment.
People should suck it up a bit more and try to understand why some of Bobby's decisions are made. Then think of another reason why the it as the logical decision to make and not use hindsight to prove people wrong.

You can't really be this arsed about what strangers are saying about some other people you don't know on an Internet forum, and then tell someone to get out more.

I think it's important that the fans show a bit of unity inside the ground; that's where our participation begins and ends, though. What gets said on here couldn't matter any less .

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

You can't really be this arsed about what strangers are saying about some other people you don't know on an Internet forum, and then tell someone to get out more.

I think it's important that the fans show a bit of unity inside the ground; that's where our participation begins and ends, though. What gets said on here couldn't matter any less .

No, you're completely right. It's me who's the mentallist in all this.
Continue with your mudflinging, I'm sure you'll get Bobby sacked eventually.

 

[catcherintherye]

Agree with that mate. The point about having a more defensive minded back four and that providing the platform to draw Barkley back into one of the two CM posts is a good one, though dependent on getting this playmaker in (which is becoming like a hunt for a unicorn for Martinez it appears!). And dead right about Seamus too. Both he and Baines can be played in roles further up the pitch.

Sometimes you stumble upon a way forward through injuries to first teamers. Galloway and Browning at FBs is just such a case, imo.

To be honest with you the Barkley conundrum was central to my thinking in that way. It was after the QPR game I started to make the suggestion (I'm sure if people want they can go back through my posts and will see a similar thing). Against he ran the game and was the one player a cut above everyone else on the pitch playing from one of the "holding" midfield spots.

He is an uncomfortable number 10 for me. It is a position that you are often on the periphery of the game but you can show the occasional moment of brilliance. Ross needs to be far more central to the game than that and we need to get him the ball as often as possible. He will see more of the ball deeper and be able to dictate play better. He is much better facing the game than with his back to it and he will have more attacking options in that position.

The obvious negative of doing that is the lack of security and covering he will provide the back four. Barry/McCarthy are fantastic at this. The Trade off may be one or both fullbacks are defenders first.

The difficulty is there aren't many playmakers of that calibre out there. I think Tadic would have been a very good signing. Clearly though Martinez (likes Moyes before him) in fairness would rather bring nobody in than risking getting the wrong player. I also think he wants to rebuild the side a bit at a time, not the Liverpool model of bringing in 8 new first team players a season. The number 10 would be ideal but we may have to be patient.

Having said that even without a classic number 10 I still think that system could suit us better. You have the option of Naismith (who for me his best position is as a number 10) or Kone (as a supporting player to Lukaku). In Other games if he pulls his finger out we also have the opportunity to use Mirallas or even Deulofeu in that role to try and counter sides.

I don't see us doing that any time soon though. However the next 10 games (post Arsenal) will give us a good idea whether we can stop leaking goals against a poor set of sides, and dominate the game enough to be allowed attacking fullbacks. The next ten games will shape how we move forward. I sense though that we will be more susceptible to goals off set plays/wide balls into the box.

 

[daz4matty]

Would you trust Robles over Howard?

I would mate.
We have 2 poor keepers but at least robles is not scared.
A big mistake by martinez not dealing with the keeper fiasco in the summer

 

[Titus Bramble]

I would mate.
We have 2 poor keepers but at least robles is not scared.
A big mistake by martinez not dealing with the keeper fiasco in the summer

I dunno, he's looked very nervy when he's played so far this season.

I agree though, we need a new keeper.

 

[davek]

To be honest with you the Barkley conundrum was central to my thinking in that way. It was after the QPR game I started to make the suggestion (I'm sure if people want they can go back through my posts and will see a similar thing). Against he ran the game and was the one player a cut above everyone else on the pitch playing from one of the "holding" midfield spots.

He is an uncomfortable number 10 for me. It is a position that you are often on the periphery of the game but you can show the occasional moment of brilliance. Ross needs to be far more central to the game than that and we need to get him the ball as often as possible. He will see more of the ball deeper and be able to dictate play better. He is much better facing the game than with his back to it and he will have more attacking options in that position.

The obvious negative of doing that is the lack of security and covering he will provide the back four. Barry/McCarthy are fantastic at this. The Trade off may be one or both fullbacks are defenders first.

The difficulty is there aren't many playmakers of that calibre out there. I think Tadic would have been a very good signing. Clearly though Martinez (likes Moyes before him) in fairness would rather bring nobody in than risking getting the wrong player. I also think he wants to rebuild the side a bit at a time, not the Liverpool model of bringing in 8 new first team players a season. The number 10 would be ideal but we may have to be patient.

Having said that even without a classic number 10 I still think that system could suit us better. You have the option of Naismith (who for me his best position is as a number 10) or Kone (as a supporting player to Lukaku). In Other games if he pulls his finger out we also have the opportunity to use Mirallas or even Deulofeu in that role to try and counter sides.

I don't see us doing that any time soon though. However the next 10 games (post Arsenal) will give us a good idea whether we can stop leaking goals against a poor set of sides, and dominate the game enough to be allowed attacking fullbacks. The next ten games will shape how we move forward. I sense though that we will be more susceptible to goals off set plays/wide balls into the box.

If we continue to see frailties with the CBs and balls into the box it's surely just a matter of time before Funes Mori is starting - regardless of injury to Stones/Jagielka. That'd help address some of the issues you raise about an aerial threat.

On Barkley and the playmaker role: I think we have to persevere with that until we do bring a specialist in. Kone can play off Lukaku but he's not a player to look to in order to continually get on the ball and make things happen in the last third; Naismith demands a free role off a striker to get on the end of things himself rather than servicing any other team mate; Deulofeu needs a lot of space to work in and would find it too congested coming inside off the flank; Mirallas's first instinct is to get on the ball and never give it up until he can get a shot off. Barkley is the best option amongst that lot. Until we do get hold of a proper playmaker then the ball winner/creative CM partnership will have to be put on hold. At least we know that if we do get that type of player in then the other parts of the jigsaw fall into place in the manner we've been talking about (flatter, less adventurous but more solid, back four).

 

[catcherintherye]

If we continue to see frailties with the CBs and balls into the box it's surely just a matter of time before Funes Mori is starting - regardless of injury to Stones/Jagielka. That'd help address some of the issues you raise about an aerial threat.

On Barkley and the playmaker role: I think we have to persevere with that until we do bring a specialist in. Kone can play off Lukaku but he's not a player to look to in order to continually get on the ball and make things happen in the last third; Naismith demands a free role off a striker to get on the end of things himself rather than servicing any other team mate; Deulofeu needs a lot of space to work in and would find it too congested coming inside off the flank; Mirallas's first instinct is to get on the ball and never give it up until he can get a shot off. Barkley is the best option amongst that lot. Until we do get hold of a proper playmaker then the ball winner/creative CM partnership will have to be put on hold. At least we know that if we do get that type of player in then the other parts of the jigsaw fall into place in the manner we've been talking about (flatter, less adventurous but more solid, back four).

I think that's fair. None of the players I mentioned are number 10's either and it would necessitate a change on how we were playing. I think it would suit a system of counter attacking though which we seem to like using. We'd have to build attacks from deeper while relying more on balls put into the box from wide areas.

Fumes Mori may well start more. However I don't think that will eliminate the problems. In the end you have to stop as many balls coming into the box as possible. Galloway and Browning are very good at this and will only get better with time. They are also good at defending the back post (which is also a problem for us).

 

[Lanolin]

I have never (and will never) understand the idea of being pro or anti Martinez. The man is manager of the football club I spend much of my time and most of money supporting. Why on earth would i want him to fail? I am absolutely desperate for him to succeed, same as I was with Moyes, same as I will be with whoever replaces him, whether that's in 10 days or 10 years.

I have no problem admitting that last year, I felt that sacking him was the best solution to our problems. From December through to the start of February I felt we were in free fall and in grave danger of being relegated. He halted the slide and I give him credit for that. As far as i'm concerned he was given a fresh start this season and I don't think there should even be any thought of sacking him at the moment. Our start hasn't been great, but nor has it been terrible. In the main, I think he's doing OK.

However, if people are going to get the hump about the manager being criticised and questioned after an absolute thumping at home to one of our biggest rivals, I have to question their logic in visiting a fans forum.

 

[catcherintherye]

I am surprised by some of the reaction on here. I absolutely agree that we people have the right to be annoyed and angry at the performance and result. I don't think those having a go at people are trying to undermine that. However I do think it is reasonable to question whether on the basis of 1 result said people would want to sack Martinez.

This was like my Dad he told me we needed to sack him. I pointed out we'd had a decent start so he said we should have sacked him in the summer. I think that is reasonable enough. If your view is he should go that's fine but I don't think waiting for one bad result to call for his sacking is particularly sensible.

Since the darkest period of last season I had always maintained we should judge him by Christmas. For me that still stands. Though some think it's an excuse I do think it has to be acknowledged we have had the hardest start to the season of any team. Of our opening 10 fixtures we have played all of last seasons top 8. I think we have played one side people would put into the bottom 6 (Watford) and the other side West Brom away was a tricky game we won!

After that start if you'd have said you'll have 13 points through 10 games I'd have bit your hand off and said we were right in the mix for even top 4. I think from the following 9 games we should be aiming for at least 18 points. That would give us 31 points at the half way stage which means we would be in the mix.

Our critical fixture is not Arsenal away. It will be the following fixtures. From the next 9 we really need to win 6 out of them. If we repeat the results of our first 9 games I think it's reasonable to have a look at him again (if we have 26 points through 18 games).

However I do think some fans need to be realistic. We have the 11th biggest wage budget and similar level of net spend figures. While I don't think a "top half" finish is anything to write home about in the current context it is also not something I would advocate sacking the manager for. It is a par performance and for me we shouldn't make the change for being average.

I really hope it works for Martinez. He is trying to bring through young players. I think if we get rid of him we will end up with a manager who will do the opposite of that and the youth orientated approach will be the easy scapegoat. Under a manager like Allardyce players like Browning & Galloway would not have been given a chance and I would greatly fear for their opportunities going forward.

A poor performance and result against Manchester United. (Not as bad as our result against Watford mind). But only as bad as say Southampton or Chelsea were good. Try not to let one result shift your whole way of thinking.

 

[Lowste]

Since the late HK, he is the only manager who has given me any real hope.
We have gone through a procession of managers that have tried their best in making us a power again, but sadly didn't have the vision, but did have the guile to keep us a float.
I firmly believe in RM he has the vision, but with this vision he has also brought an expectation that I believe is achievable but it will take time, investment and a little luck.
I think sadly we now have a core who will not be patient and will not trust the vision

 

[l4toffee]

Since the late HK, he is the only manager who has given me any real hope.
We have gone through a procession of managers that have tried their best in making us a power again, but sadly didn't have the vision, but did have the guile to keep us a float.
I firmly believe in RM he has the vision, but with this vision he has also brought an expectation that I believe is achievable but it will take time, investment and a little luck.
I think sadly we now have a core who will not be patient and will not trust the vision

you forgot joe royle ?

 

[Osamabindiesel]

I am a fan of Martinez because he is excellent at scouting young talent and he is good in the transfer window. When we are good, we are incredible to watch. However, sometimes it feels like he doesn't do nearly enough during the game to put us in a better position to fight back in scenarios when we are losing. If I ever watch any of the top managers and they are losing, 80-90% of the time they will make GOOD adjustments to give themselves a much better chance. He needs to become better in-game; that is where I think he struggles at times.

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

I am a fan of Martinez because he is excellent at scouting young talent and he is good in the transfer window. When we are good, we are incredible to watch. However, sometimes it feels like he doesn't do nearly enough during the game to put us in a better position to fight back in scenarios when we are losing. If I ever watch any of the top managers and they are losing, 80-90% of the time they will make GOOD adjustments to give themselves a much better chance. He needs to become better in-game; that is where I think he struggles at times.

There was me thinking it was the starts of the games he struggled with not the coming back into the game from a goal down stuff.

 

[deipnosophist]

Martinez is a bit of a conundrum to me. He inspires and demotivates my Everton passion in equal measure.

 

[mkrudden]

He's brilliant.
I like him and the style of football more than Moyes and anything he formulated in 11 years with us.
I know he has faults, but I also look at our squad and think it's in the best shape it's been in 25 years.
This year we've started ok. Need some momentum for after the next international break.