Roberto Martinez discussion

[Saint Domingo]

We got our best points total of the premier league with Martinez, you'd have to say we were pretty unlucky that those four apparently rubbish teams got better tallies. We've got a good side, but we might be overstating it in an era where teams like Liverpool can spooge 300 million up a wall without a thought. Top 4 is possible, but Moyes managed to get it once in 11 years. We'll give Martinez more than 2 and a bit, yeah?

I'm just trying to rail against the general overriding theme that has crept in on this thread which is that there's no point even questioning Martinez because top 4 is impossible so in that context you can't say he's underachieved. However much Liverpool spend has no impact on whether we are a top side or not. The facts are that when they were under Rafael they had top players like Alonso Torres Mascherano Reina and almost guaranteed champions league football. Overhauling that with an Everton side that had the shadow of relegation over it and your best player being sold every year is extremely difficult (hence why it only happened once). Nevertheless though in his last two seasons we were ahead of Liverpool. Regardless of what the two clubs spent we had a squad that showed over 76 games we were a more consistent footballing outfit than them. The current Liverpool side, no matter how much it has spent, is poorer than it has ever been in the prem before. We have players like Barkley, Stones, Deulofeu who we barely paid anything for but would be worth astronomical amounts. If It is therefore not unreasonable to expect a decent manager to marshall this squad to at least challenge some of those top sides. I could buy any argument that said 'first season is the real Martinez, last season was an aberration, we can push for top 4 this season'. I wouldn't agree with it but i'd respect it. But instead any questioning of Martinez is met with people going on about how the top 4 is impossible, look how much x,y, and z have spent this squad is only really mid table, there's no depth. It's the deepest Everton squad I've seen for ages! Basically any excuse under the sun to explain away blatant under performance.

 

[Saint Domingo]

We got top four with 61 points (16 points off 3rd place and 3 points ahead of a Liverpool team that Benitez was newly in charge of and who was concentrating only on their CL run).

It was an almighty fluke. 61 points FFS...never in a million years will that be enough again. 72 points fell way short two seasons ago.

CL spots are way beyond Everton - you need approaching a galactico squad to get the job done.

How did Brendan the clown lead a Liverpool side with a strikeforce of Borini, Lambert and Balotelli to nearly get it last season? Rubbish manager, rubbish squad but almost got in. We had a supposedly better manager and a 30 mill striker upfront yet finished 12th. Something's not right.

 

[Prevenger17]

I'm just trying to rail against the general overriding theme that has crept in on this thread which is that there's no point even questioning Martinez because top 4 is impossible so in that context you can't say he's underachieved. However much Liverpool spend has no impact on whether we are a top side or not. The facts are that when they were under Rafael they had top players like Alonso Torres Mascherano Reina and almost guaranteed champions league football. Overhauling that with an Everton side that had the shadow of relegation over it and your best player being sold every year is extremely difficult (hence why it only happened once). Nevertheless though in his last two seasons we were ahead of Liverpool. Regardless of what the two clubs spent we had a squad that showed over 76 games we were a more consistent footballing outfit than them. The current Liverpool side, no matter how much it has spent, is poorer than it has ever been in the prem before. We have players like Barkley, Stones, Deulofeu who we barely paid anything for but would be worth astronomical amounts. If It is therefore not unreasonable to expect a decent manager to marshall this squad to at least challenge some of those top sides. I could buy any argument that said 'first season is the real Martinez, last season was an aberration, we can push for top 4 this season'. I wouldn't agree with it but i'd respect it. But instead any questioning of Martinez is met with people going on about how the top 4 is impossible, look how much x,y, and z have spent this squad is only really mid table, there's no depth. It's the deepest Everton squad I've seen for ages! Basically any excuse under the sun to explain away blatant under performance.

Oh, deal with it. The people who supported Martinez last season had to endure post-match polls after every effing game we lost. Besides, I love Martinez, but I question his team selections and tactics all the time. Even Davek is baffled by his persistent use of Naismith. This blind, unswerving loyalty you're seeing doesn't exist, we just recognize the work Martinez has done to build the team we have and are excited at its potential. We're railing against the knee-jerk calls for Martinez' head, the questioning of his integrity and character, and the inquisitions that seem to follow after the odd time he has the temerity to lose a game.

 

[Lowste]

GOT logic: Moyes gets top 4 in with Mourinho's record title winners, Ferguson's United, Arsenal's invincibles and ahead of Rafael's Liverpool. Everton had a very poor squad and the top 4 were immensely strong and entrenched = Dinosaur football from a hopeless manager, best of the rest isn't good enough, glass ceiling is self imposed blah blah blah

Martinez has a far far far better Everton side with a 30 mill striker upfront. The top 4 no longer exists with the rise of City and managerial change breaking up the old order. Arsenal, United, Chelsea and Liverpool are undoubtedly poorer, Everton are undoubtedly superior to what they were = squad can only be expected to be top ten, the other teams have too much money, the top 4 is impossible, we can do nothing but wait for a billionaire.

It's absolutely ridiculous. 04/05 shows that the top 4 is never impossible. All you have to be is consistent. A consistent way of playing with the gradual improvement of the overall quality and you can try to consistently challenge. Moyes never had this as his team was continuously ripped apart and his best players sold every season. Martinez has not had any of his best players sold yet. He was allowed to bring in expensive loans and then allowed to back it up with the huge purchase of Lukaku. Despite this he spent last season on an ideological bender faffing around in midtable. Apparently this is ok though because the top 4 is impossible.

Maybe top 4 not impossible, but almost impossible

If memory serves me right only us and Spurs have broken into this CL elite club

As for Moyes, he only sold players so they could better their carreers...he said this himself.
I always thought he should of been looking after the interests of the club not players ambitions and wage packets.
As for Lukaku, I look at his price tag in the same bracket as Yakubu.....TV money inflated the price and what we had we spent, so no change in RM and DM spending what they have at their disposal.

Before you go off on one, I was also a big fan of DM and thought he done a great job

No doubt this will confuse you, as how can I like both managers

 

[Prevenger17]

No doubt this will confuse you, as how can I like both managers

WHA?!! IMPOSSIBRUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

[Saint Domingo]

Maybe top 4 not impossible, but almost impossible

If memory serves me right only us and Spurs have broken into this CL elite club

As for Moyes, he only sold players so they could better their carreers...he said this himself.
I always thought he should of been looking after the interests of the club not players ambitions and wage packets.
As for Lukaku, I look at his price tag in the same bracket as Yakubu.....TV money inflated the price and what we had we spent, so no change in RM and DM spending what they have at their disposal.

Before you go off on one, I was also a big fan of DM and thought he done a great job

No doubt this will confuse you, as how can I like both managers

Why would liking both confuse me? There's aspects of Martinez I like. I just don't like how the goalposts have moved for some posters to justify irrational defence of any sort of critical questioning. I just think with the platform Martinez now has (good squad, few years in the job, board no longer selling top players) if he is a good manager we should start to see progress this season. I will not, however, be talked into accepting 12th as where we should be though when I see the players in this squad. That was a monumental under performance. It was not the natural outcome of the premier leagues unstoppable economic forces, it was just utter rank management. If Martinez has got his act together this season then great. If its the same again the I think he needs to go, simple as that.

 

[Lowste]

WHA?!! IMPOSSIBRUUUUUUUUUUUUU

I did like DM and supported him.

The killer for me was the Wigan game in the cup, as that was the realisation change was needed.
I didn't call for his head or call him childish names, but felt when he left it was right for all parties.

When he left I thought some of his comments were poor and very ill timed, and was very surprised at them.

I like most people can be baffled by RM team selections, but I look what we are trying to do and it does fill me with optimism....the align game was when my optimism was ripped out of me

 

[Kiwi]

People forget in 04/5 Man City weren't a thing. Now there's one more tram throwing money at the wall to get in the CL

 

[Prevenger17]

I did like DM and supported him.

The killer for me was the Wigan game in the cup, as that was the realisation change was needed.
I didn't call for his head or call him childish names, but felt when he left it was right for all parties.

When he left I thought some of his comments were poor and very ill timed, and was very surprised at them.

I like most people can be baffled by RM team selections, but I look what we are trying to do and it does fill me with optimism....the align game was when my optimism was ripped out of me

I also liked DM, and was worried about his departure while simultaneously acknowledging we'd hit a dead end with him. His carry-on with Fellaini and Baines was unsavoury but I've long since ceased to care.

 

[degsy]

We got our best points total of the premier league with Martinez, you'd have to say we were pretty unlucky that those four apparently rubbish teams got better tallies. We've got a good side, but we might be overstating it in an era where teams like Liverpool can spooge 300 million up a wall without a thought. Top 4 is possible, but Moyes managed to get it once in 11 years. We'll give Martinez more than 2 and a bit, yeah?

GOT logic: Moyes gets top 4 in with Mourinho's record title winners, Ferguson's United, Arsenal's invincibles and ahead of Rafael's Liverpool. Everton had a very poor squad and the top 4 were immensely strong and entrenched = Dinosaur football from a hopeless manager, best of the rest isn't good enough, glass ceiling is self imposed blah blah blah

Martinez has a far far far better Everton side with a 30 mill striker upfront. The top 4 no longer exists with the rise of City and managerial change breaking up the old order. Arsenal, United, Chelsea and Liverpool are undoubtedly poorer, Everton are undoubtedly superior to what they were = squad can only be expected to be top ten, the other teams have too much money, the top 4 is impossible, we can do nothing but wait for a billionaire.

It's absolutely ridiculous. 04/05 shows that the top 4 is never impossible. All you have to be is consistent. A consistent way of playing with the gradual improvement of the overall quality and you can try to consistently challenge. Moyes never had this as his team was continuously ripped apart and his best players sold every season. Martinez has not had any of his best players sold yet. He was allowed to bring in expensive loans and then allowed to back it up with the huge purchase of Lukaku. Despite this he spent last season on an ideological bender faffing around in mid-table. Apparently this is ok though because the top 4 is impossible.

Read on their own both post are pretty true and both can have holes picked in them

This whole Martinez thread in a nutshell.

I happen to think he's a bland paella to Moyeses put more salt on yer porridge laddie - both to be swerved.
I like a bit of flavour in my paella and a bit of sugar not salt on porridge.

But unless there is an Internal change at the Club and the old 'get 10th and anything else is a bonus' is changed or it all goes Mike Walker-ish
nothing will happen.

Yes there will be the odd high spot and the odd debacle

He has just as much a job for life that Moyes had.

Sad to say.

 

[Lowste]

Why would liking both confuse me? There's aspects of Martinez I like. I just don't like how the goalposts have moved for some posters to justify irrational defence of any sort of critical questioning. I just think with the platform Martinez now has (good squad, few years in the job, board no longer selling top players) if he is a good manager we should start to see progress this season. I will not, however, be talked into accepting 12th as where we should be though when I see the players in this squad. That was a monumental under performance. It was not the natural outcome of the premier leagues unstoppable economic forces, it was just utter rank management. If Martinez has got his act together this season then great. If its the same again the I think he needs to go, simple as that.

I can be constructive over a few areas of RM tenure, but I don't go into the knee jerk overload like some people on here.
I read your posts with interest but I find I am becoming sceptical of your content, as they tend to start off in a good constructive approach but the ending is always the same....sack him.
I have seen great Everton teams and I have seen very poor Everton teams, this team I do believe we have the potential to be a very good team but let's not forget there are a fair few very good teams out there

Would you agree that 5th - 8th is were we sit

 

[Prevenger17]

Read on their own both post are pretty true and both can have holes picked in them

This whole Martinez thread in a nutshell.

I happen to think he's a bland paella to Moyeses put more salt on yer porridge laddie - both to be swerved.
I like a bit of flavour in my paella and a bit of sugar not salt on porridge.

But unless there is an Internal change at the Club and the old 'get 10th and anything else is a bonus' is changed or it all goes Mike Walker-ish
nothing will happen.

Yes there will be the odd high spot and the odd debacle

He has just as much a job for life that Moyes had.

Sad to say.

You lost me at "paella".

 

[The Equaliser]

He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

 

[degsy]

You lost me at "paella".

no surprises there then

*Thinks;how to dumb this down a bit.

They are both different flavours of bang average to be swerved / got rid of.
but it won't happen as the Club ( and sad to say too many supporters ) is happy with an average low single digit finish like 7th 8th or even the odd 5th or 11th

 

[Dithering Dougie]

@Prevenger17 handing out a real beat down here to football managers "miserable 1".