Roberto Martinez discussion

[MikeH72]

You really think that Gray was just about knocking people over? And in any case, Sharp was more of a spearhead for that 80s team's attacking play. Why on earth are you suggesting a lump up to Gray was central to that team's achievements?

Honest to God. I'm speechless with the way this Everton team of the 80's is being talked down here. And all to try and offer a no mark like Moyes a bit of credibility.

It's really not got anything to do with Moyes. It's to contend with your ridiculous delusions of grandeur about how football "should" be played, and how king Roberto is rescuing the school of science with pointless sideways passing as that's all that the successful Everton teams of the past used to do. You've tried to rewrite history on your own in an attempt to defend your lord and saviour

 

[ilikecheese]

Why do you hate moyes so much dude

I can't speak for Dave...and I don't hate Moyes.

That said, I am glad he is no longer our manager. He was the right man for the job at the time, but plucky little Everton we are not...and that's what he'd have you believe.

Martinez finally inspired hope in me after a very long time. Whether we achieve his goals is another story. The punching above our weight mentality was lifted finally when he was hired.

 

[mkrudden]

Unbelievable mate, at least you're consistent. What was our highest league position under Royle? What about Walker and Smith? The sad truth is that most Evertonians seemed to be more excited by Moyes' football as in Martinez has been booed more often in 18 months than Moyes was in 11 years. Now have all 40,000 match day going Evertonians been hoodwinked? Or could it be that your assertion that we witnessed 11 years of long ball hoofing is over exaggerated?

What a exaggerated, baseless and utterly bonkers post this is.

 

[mkrudden]

You really think that Gray was just about knocking people over? And in any case, Sharp was more of a spearhead for that 80s team's attacking play. Why on earth are you suggesting a lump up to Gray was central to that team's achievements?

Honest to God. I'm speechless with the way this Everton team of the 80's is being talked down here. And all to try and offer a no mark like Moyes a bit of credibility.

To me its clear, Dave.
Moyes offered security. Security that we'd finish in certain parameters of the league, winning nothing but always maintaining respectability. We were risk averse throughout the club. Plucky Everton. Out tactics were built on the opposition having the ball, keeping tight and eeking out a 1-0.

Martinez has asked us to take responsibility. To take the game to the opposition by having possession and trying to break teams down. The highs will be high but whilst relying on the inexperience and inconsistency of youth, the lows may be lower that that under moyes. He needs money and time, both transfer windows and time to develop the gifted youngsters he is integrating.

Its the unknown Evertonians don't like. Feels wrong after 11 years of safety.

Each to their own, but I like the club setting out to win with a style which I, and many others despite what @Saint Domingo insinuates, enjoy and will enjoy the more it's perfected.

 

[ilikecheese]

To me its clear, Dave.
Moyes offered security. Security that we'd finish in certain parameters of the league, winning nothing but always maintaining respectability. We were risk averse throughout the club. Plucky Everton. Out tactics were built on the opposition having the ball, keeping tight and eeking out a 1-0.

Martinez has asked us to take responsibility. To take the game to the opposition by having possession and trying to break teams down. The highs will be high but whilst relying on the inexperience and inconsistency of youth, the lows may be lower that that under moyes. He needs money and time, both transfer windows and time to develop the gifted youngsters he is integrating.

Its the unknown Evertonians don't like. Feels wrong after 11 years of safety.

Each to their own, but I like the club setting out to win with a style which I, and many others despite what @Saint Domingo insinuates, enjoy and will enjoy the more it's perfected.

Wish I would have typed that. Wish we still had rep.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

It's really not got anything to do with Moyes. It's to contend with your ridiculous delusions of grandeur about how football "should" be played, and how king Roberto is rescuing the school of science with pointless sideways passing as that's all that the successful Everton teams of the past used to do. You've tried to rewrite history on your own in an attempt to defend your lord and saviour

I don't think Dave has made a serious post in this thread in about a year.

People really should just laugh at him, makes this thread so much more entertaining.

As you've just shown, his argument has more holes than swiss cheese lol

 

[Dexter]

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately we have folks that have pro/anti agendas.

It's frustrating how toxic this thread is.

This is probably the shortest post that someone has completely contradicted themselves in

 

[ilikecheese]

This is probably the shortest post that someone has completely contradicted themselves in

How so? Do people have agendas? Yes. Do I wish this was less toxic? Yes. Do I agree with Tubey's post? Yes.

Where am I contradicting myself?

 

[Furey1878]

How so? Do people have agendas? Yes. Do I wish is was less toxic? Yes. Do I agree with Tubey's post? Yes.

Where am I contradicting myself?

You clearly have an agenda against people with agendas.

Hypocrite you, lad.

 

[davek]

To me its clear, Dave.
Moyes offered security. Security that we'd finish in certain parameters of the league, winning nothing but always maintaining respectability. We were risk averse throughout the club. Plucky Everton. Out tactics were built on the opposition having the ball, keeping tight and eeking out a 1-0.

Martinez has asked us to take responsibility. To take the game to the opposition by having possession and trying to break teams down. The highs will be high but whilst relying on the inexperience and inconsistency of youth, the lows may be lower that that under moyes. He needs money and time, both transfer windows and time to develop the gifted youngsters he is integrating.

Its the unknown Evertonians don't like. Feels wrong after 11 years of safety.

Each to their own, but I like the club setting out to win with a style which I, and many others despite what @Saint Domingo insinuates, enjoy and will enjoy the more it's perfected.

*Stands and applauds*

Thank God for that. I hope some of the cave dwellers read that post and learn something. They wont listen to me, perhaps they'll listen to you.

 

[mkrudden]

*Stands and applauds*

Thank God for that. I hope some of the cave dwellers read that post and learn something. They wont listen to me, perhaps they'll listen to you.

Doubt it mate.

 

[Dexter]

I distinctly remember Bobby arguing that goals from set pieces should be worth less than goals from open play. No joke. I'm a Martinez fan and want him to succeed, but as I said his aversion to set pieces is baffling. Such a huge part of the game.

And a lot of points/goals that he obviously does not want, utterly baffling and on the verge of true insanity

 

[MikeH72]

*Stands and applauds*

Thank God for that. I hope some of the cave dwellers read that post and learn something. They wont listen to me, perhaps they'll listen to you.

Of course we'd sooner listen to rudden, as he gets his point across without being a high and mighty, condescending, tripe chatting clown about it

 

[Prevenger17]

Of course we'd sooner listen to rudden, as he gets his point across without being a high and mighty, condescending, tripe chatting clown about it

Retract that and accept Dave as your GOD.

 

[Saint Domingo]

You're looking for the manager - who sees football as needing to be played in a certain way - to move toward you, who believes it should be played in another (as yet unspecified) way. That's hardly a situation where you're open minded is it? There's not a lot of persuadingro be done there.

We play with pace and get in behind teams with numbers when they want to make a game of it; and we keep possession, probing for a gap when they dont want to do that. There's not a great deal more to it than that. Put labels on it if you wish, but it looks a pretty orthodox way of playing football to me. The only criticisms that can be made of it is if the pace of our play isn't kept sufficiently high, or that we are short of one or two players who can turn the screw on compact opponents when they do sit back. But I really dont see any way I could criticise or doubt a manager who's fundamental method is to take the game to the opposition and control the ball. It's exactly what Moyes' teams were incapable of, because they were cast in his negative, risk averse likeness.

A complete mis-reading of both managers tactics in my opinion. Most of Martinez's best performances for us have come on the counter attack. United Arsenal at home, Southampton away, we let the other team have the ball and waited for a mistake then pounds with very good counterattacking. Sometimes it works brilliantly, sometimes a team like City will take you apart when you give them the ball. There's no illusion though that this is possession football, it's not, it's a variation on what Klopp will do across the park, wait for the mistake and pounce.

I can count on one hand the number of victories that we have achieved by probing and breaking teams down on the front foot. Chelsea this season was an excellent example of it. But that is not what we see most weeks and the reason we struggle to do this is because we don't have creative players indeed our attack often includes players in Lukaku and Naismith who are very poor at keeping the ball. So the intention is there but nowhere near the execution so the reality is you get teams like Norwich coming to Goodison quite easily taking control of possession as we can't put enough passes together.

For me Moyes' problem was that he could only play two ways. When he had his top players for we played on the front foot, Arteta Pienaar Osnan Baines Cahill all pinging passes around unlocking the opposition. Teams like Hull or Sunderlamd would come to Goodison and be mauled. We controlled games and mixed defence with attack. His problem was he'd try to play this way against better teams, we'd go to Stamford Bridge and try and play some neat interplay but get physically dominated by a top side.

When he didn't have his top players, we'd see pragmatic football that would still work more often than not at home but was designed for a point away from home.

Martinez will always get those headline catching wins that counterattacking football gives you but this vision that he's mastered possession football for me is wrong, his plan A for breaking down teams at home is worse than Moyes and our home record shows that. His plan B (the counterattack) is cleverer than Moyes' (the pragmatic approach) and is more eye catching but works less times.

That for me is the trade off, and it may mean that Martinez wins trophies for us (I hope so), and might win at Anfield, but from what I've seen so far, the days of turning up at Goodison knowing we will beat a side are not arriving anytime soon. Any Everton could turn up, there's no control, and I think this will be reflected in lower league positions.

Hoping to be proven wrong on all of the above though.