Roberto Martinez discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Martinez himself has commented on our defensive frailities against both S'land ( which I quoted somewhere yesterday ) and Arsenal.

Plainly it's right to be chuffed about our performance going forward and scoring six goals is fantastic, but you improve by consolidating what you've done well and working on what you didn't do so well. Based on his words, I'd say Martinez is aware of that and will be talking about it to his staff and players.

If it's fit for Martinez to talk about, then it's fit for GOT to talk about it too.

Iron out the majority of those mistakes over the course of a season and we're in with a good chance of European footie next season.
You're comparing apples and pears there. Martinez (as you rightly say), whilst emphasising the attacking side of the performance, highlighted our problems without the ball. But that's not what the issue is here for a handful of posters who cant find it within themselves to acknowledge that slotting six past any PL team is an achievement of great merit. It's just ridiculous. The amount of times it's been underlined since the final whistle how many chances Sunderland created (in an attempt, it seems, to offset Everton's win in some way shape or form) is at best a bit odd, and at worst some sort of churlish attempt to deny the manager and players a great result. Yes, Sunderland had shots on goal; yes, defensive errors were on display. But you cant have every single aspect of a game go for you, especially when you play as open as we needed to in order to go out and play with the flair we needed to get 6 goals.

You know as well as I do that many who highlight defensive frailties yesterday would have been spitting blood if we'd failed to go for Sunderland and make it an open game. I thought we showed real courage there yesterday. Taking command twice in a game after once having been pegged back. That's a massive tick in the credit column for me, especially against any team managed by Allardyce.
 

But that's not what the issue is here for a handful of posters who cant find it within themselves to acknowledge that slotting six past any PL team is an achievement of great merit. It's just ridiculous. The amount of times it's been underlined since the final whistle how many chances Sunderland created (in an attempt, it seems, to offset Everton's win in some way shape or form) is at best a bit odd, and at worst some sort of churlish attempt to deny the manager and players a great result.

You know as well as I do that many who highlight defensive frailties yesterday would have been spitting blood if we'd failed to go for Sunderland and make it an open game. I thought we showed real courage there yesterday. Taking command twice in a game after once having been pegged back. That's a massive tick in the credit column for me, especially against any team managed by Allardyce.

Oh, I don't disagree with much, if anything you said. There will be a few posters who purely want to highlight the negative regardless of the overall performance, but the majority of posters are just highlighting concerns within the framework of an excellent performance.

By doing your best "mortally wounded" impersonation ( which, fair play, you do very well ) you could easily be construed as just wanting to stifle any meaningful debate. Plainly that's not the case, but you're easily misunderstood sometimes David.
 
Oh, I don't disagree with much, if anything you said. There will be a few posters who purely want to highlight the negative regardless of the overall performance, but the majority of posters are just highlighting concerns within the framework of an excellent performance.

By doing your best "mortally wounded" impersonation ( which, fair play, you do very well ) you could easily be construed as just wanting to stifle any meaningful debate. Plainly that's not the case, but you're easily misunderstood sometimes David.
I dont know how emphasising yesterday's score is stifling debate. I take great pride in Everton winning by such a margin.
 
To be honest mate Martinez is the manager he should question every little thing.

As a fan I couldn't care less what happens as long as we win. What I think if the defence matters little.

some might call that being a one dimensional happy-clapper, but I couldn't possibly comment.
 

I dont know how emphasising yesterday's score is stifling debate. I take great pride in Everton winning by such a margin.

For my original post on this matter I deliberately picked on a post which was non-confrontational. I could have multi quoted three or four which were aimed mostly to annoy, but didn't want to hurt your feelings.

Well, that and the quote link happened to be close to my cursor.
 

I really dont want to labour the point, tbh. I know people are sick and tired of the in-fighting. But finding more fault than good in a 6-2 win really is the biggest monument to the unthinking, position-taking prejudice that this manager has had to put up with from a group of die hard opponents who cant stand the thought that we've moved on from the one dimensional hoofball "excitement" they hanker for the return of.
True. I'll say it again, not to make it an anti-Howard post, but he has cost us a good 4-6 points this season conservatively. After a difficult opening 10 games, where does that put us? Top keeper and we are pushing for top 5.
 
The negative vibe of the crowd at home does nothing good for the team.

It's not a negative vibe.

It's tension and frustration plain and simple. Has been like that for 30 years.

We are Everton. We don't go all happy clappy if we're two up against some crap team. We're only happy when we're smashing a top team (eg Arsenal home two seasons ago with 38 thousand singing their hearts out for the last half hour as we toyed with them on the pitch) or a rabble rousing comeback.

Eg against the RS a couple of weeks ago the ground was like death but that was only because, for the first time in ages, we expected to batter them but couldn't stand the idea of losing.
 
I find this thread really interesting if you go back to the start and work your way through it.

Essentially, people were generally a bit cautious about his appointment because he'd got Wigan relegated. I don't really have any problem with this myself, that was always going to happen eventually and it's worth pointing out that Wenger, Klopp and a number of other top managers got teams relegated before hitting the heights later in their careers (winning the FA Cup with a team like Wigan should at worst cancel this out though in my eyes).

I think it's fair to say that all other than the most sceptical of Everton fans were won over after Martinez's first season - a record points total that would usually be good enough for a top 4 spot and some absolutely brilliant football at times, all done on a negative net spend.

The split (if that's what you want to call it) comes because last season was so poor. Do you judge a manager on just that one season and does what he did before have any bearing on whether you stick with him and show faith? For me it should do, but I don't claim to be right all the time.

I think it's more interesting to look at what happened last season and try to understand why it went so wrong, it wasn't like Martinez decided to stop doing all the things that made us so good in his first season.

I saw (and still see) a lot of stuff about Martinez's "tactical inflexibility", unwillingness to play with two wingers and reliance on Barry etc as the sticks to beat him with. For me, last season wasn't about one thing in particular, it was a number of factors which created a sort of perfect storm.


1) Individual mistakes leading to goals. I believe we still had more than double any other team in the league. Do you blame the manager for this? How does one coach these individual errors out of players? I don't have the answer but it was certainly a big factor in a number of our results.

2) Injuries to key players at inopportune times - every squad deals with injuries, but we had to contend with having injuries to the likes of all of our wide players at any given time or all of our creative players. You have a squad to deal with this sort of thing, but it's difficult to cope if all of the players in a certain position are out. Apart from anything else, it means any underperforming players have to keep playing.

3) Refereeing decisions. They say they average out of the course of a season. B******s. The spate of appalling refereeing decisions (game-changing decisions) we were on the wrong end of between November and January was something I'd never seen before.

4) Key players being in poor form. Again, it's to be expected at certain times and most squads deal with it, but alongside the 2nd point it becomes a bigger problem.

5) The Goodison crowd - since QPR at home I'd never witnessed anything like it before whilst following Everton. The atmosphere was horrible. You can make whatever excuses you like about why the crowd were this way but I'd take issue with anyone who thinks this has had no bearing on our players at all. There were visible reactions from our players at times because of it.

On these points, I'm not sure Martinez shoulders much/any of the blame, but the net result was that confidence was on the floor. The confidence, as much as anything, was the biggest factor in our poor season as far as I'm concerned.

I also don't buy the "tactical inflexibility" argument which a lot of the most vocal "Martinez Out" brigade were trumpeting at the time. I can remember games where we played 4231, 433, 343 and 442. We tried to set up to defend and play on the counter in some games, a purely possession-based game in some and even a few where we employed a lot of long balls, We saw experiments with the likes of Baines at centre mid etc. I don't think a stubborn reliance on a method had anything to do with it, personally.

Having said all that, which is mostly in defence of Martinez and sets out some fairly hefty extenuating circumstances in his favour, he shouldn't be absolved of all blame for the season...

Firstly I think his transfers in 2014 need to be called into serious question. We put all of our eggs into one basket with Lukaku and whilst that was understandable, it meant we had to take a punt on a loan for Christian Atsu to replace Deulofeu, bring Samuel Eto'o in on a free as cover for the injured Kone, rely on an over-the-hill Distin and an inadequate Alcaraz as cover for our two centre backs, rely on McGeady as a serious member of the 1st team squad and count on Gibson's fitness as cover for Gareth Barry and also rely on Pienaar and Osman's fitness as our creative outlets if Barkley wasn't at the races. Besic was the only other arrival and whilst promising, looked raw and not ready to be involved in the 1st team on a regular basis (despite what a few on here would argue). Lukaku aside, the transfers of last summer were largely disastrous.

Secondly, there were simply some odd decisions as far as team selections are concerned. Most notably the insistence on playing Barkley or Naismith out wide which seemed to suck the form out of both of them and also the inexplicable decision to restore Howard to the team after his injury when he had been poor and Robles had played well (a mistake I'm alarmed he has made again this season).

Martinez doesn't escape last season without criticism, but I think a lot of what happened was outside of his control and the various things which were going wrong snowballed and spiralled out of control. I don't think his approach has been markedly different this season, but we have a more settled squad, have got rid of some of the deadwood and alleged trouble makers and whilst injuries haven't been kind, we haven't had to contend with the sort of crises we had in various positions last season.

My argument last season was that we needed to have faith in the manager and that his first season showed that his approach could be one which would be successful if we trusted him. I don't have any issue with the people who wanted him gone at the height of the bad results in December to February, but I maintain that there's enough evidence to simply trust that his approach will pay dividends eventually.
 
I find this thread really interesting if you go back to the start and work your way through it.

Essentially, people were generally a bit cautious about his appointment because he'd got Wigan relegated. I don't really have any problem with this myself, that was always going to happen eventually and it's worth pointing out that Wenger, Klopp and a number of other top managers got teams relegated before hitting the heights later in their careers (winning the FA Cup with a team like Wigan should at worst cancel this out though in my eyes).

I think it's fair to say that all other than the most sceptical of Everton fans were won over after Martinez's first season - a record points total that would usually be good enough for a top 4 spot and some absolutely brilliant football at times, all done on a negative net spend.

The split (if that's what you want to call it) comes because last season was so poor. Do you judge a manager on just that one season and does what he did before have any bearing on whether you stick with him and show faith? For me it should do, but I don't claim to be right all the time.

I think it's more interesting to look at what happened last season and try to understand why it went so wrong, it wasn't like Martinez decided to stop doing all the things that made us so good in his first season.

I saw (and still see) a lot of stuff about Martinez's "tactical inflexibility", unwillingness to play with two wingers and reliance on Barry etc as the sticks to beat him with. For me, last season wasn't about one thing in particular, it was a number of factors which created a sort of perfect storm.


1) Individual mistakes leading to goals. I believe we still had more than double any other team in the league. Do you blame the manager for this? How does one coach these individual errors out of players? I don't have the answer but it was certainly a big factor in a number of our results.

2) Injuries to key players at inopportune times - every squad deals with injuries, but we had to contend with having injuries to the likes of all of our wide players at any given time or all of our creative players. You have a squad to deal with this sort of thing, but it's difficult to cope if all of the players in a certain position are out. Apart from anything else, it means any underperforming players have to keep playing.

3) Refereeing decisions. They say they average out of the course of a season. B******s. The spate of appalling refereeing decisions (game-changing decisions) we were on the wrong end of between November and January was something I'd never seen before.

4) Key players being in poor form. Again, it's to be expected at certain times and most squads deal with it, but alongside the 2nd point it becomes a bigger problem.

5) The Goodison crowd - since QPR at home I'd never witnessed anything like it before whilst following Everton. The atmosphere was horrible. You can make whatever excuses you like about why the crowd were this way but I'd take issue with anyone who thinks this has had no bearing on our players at all. There were visible reactions from our players at times because of it.

On these points, I'm not sure Martinez shoulders much/any of the blame, but the net result was that confidence was on the floor. The confidence, as much as anything, was the biggest factor in our poor season as far as I'm concerned.

I also don't buy the "tactical inflexibility" argument which a lot of the most vocal "Martinez Out" brigade were trumpeting at the time. I can remember games where we played 4231, 433, 343 and 442. We tried to set up to defend and play on the counter in some games, a purely possession-based game in some and even a few where we employed a lot of long balls, We saw experiments with the likes of Baines at centre mid etc. I don't think a stubborn reliance on a method had anything to do with it, personally.

Having said all that, which is mostly in defence of Martinez and sets out some fairly hefty extenuating circumstances in his favour, he shouldn't be absolved of all blame for the season...

Firstly I think his transfers in 2014 need to be called into serious question. We put all of our eggs into one basket with Lukaku and whilst that was understandable, it meant we had to take a punt on a loan for Christian Atsu to replace Deulofeu, bring Samuel Eto'o in on a free as cover for the injured Kone, rely on an over-the-hill Distin and an inadequate Alcaraz as cover for our two centre backs, rely on McGeady as a serious member of the 1st team squad and count on Gibson's fitness as cover for Gareth Barry and also rely on Pienaar and Osman's fitness as our creative outlets if Barkley wasn't at the races. Besic was the only other arrival and whilst promising, looked raw and not ready to be involved in the 1st team on a regular basis (despite what a few on here would argue). Lukaku aside, the transfers of last summer were largely disastrous.

Secondly, there were simply some odd decisions as far as team selections are concerned. Most notably the insistence on playing Barkley or Naismith out wide which seemed to suck the form out of both of them and also the inexplicable decision to restore Howard to the team after his injury when he had been poor and Robles had played well (a mistake I'm alarmed he has made again this season).

Martinez doesn't escape last season without criticism, but I think a lot of what happened was outside of his control and the various things which were going wrong snowballed and spiralled out of control. I don't think his approach has been markedly different this season, but we have a more settled squad, have got rid of some of the deadwood and alleged trouble makers and whilst injuries haven't been kind, we haven't had to contend with the sort of crises we had in various positions last season.

My argument last season was that we needed to have faith in the manager and that his first season showed that his approach could be one which would be successful if we trusted him. I don't have any issue with the people who wanted him gone at the height of the bad results in December to February, but I maintain that there's enough evidence to simply trust that his approach will pay dividends eventually.

Sorry mate, this all blurred in to four letters


R


A


W



K
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join Grand Old Team to get involved in the Everton discussion. Signing up is quick, easy, and completely free.

Shop

Back
Top