Roberto Martinez discussion

[Chang Elephant]

Conflict is primeval

 

[The Equaliser]

I was commenting on the liking (not necessarily writing) of posts about pro-Martinez "zealots" and other similar comments, which, while in the true spirit of this thread, are as silly (and damaging to reasoned debate) as anything an overly pro-Martinez poster could say.

I wouldn't pass judgement on someone based on what they 'like'. Personally speaking most of the time it is merely an acknowledgement that a post is mildly amusing. To do that would mean that your 'liking' of the juvenile goading by your hero that has occurred today does not portray you in a particularly positive light.

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

Sorry mate, this all blurred in to four letters


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[Stanley Parker]

Unlile some posters mate I don't try to alter the laws of physics to avoid admitting I was wrong about anything. If Kone vaulting is now the done thing then there's many a better target than me for this. To put context around that comment, I always said Kone deserved a chance rather than people writing him off when he first arrived. At the time we were discussing Martinez's transfers though and selling Jelavic for a 30 year old injured Kone didn't seem great business. It still might not be but he is definitely playing very well this season.

But you've altered the laws of physics this time, haven't you? Roberto didn't sell Jelavic for an injured Kone - the deals were not connected.

And when Roberto bought Kone in July 2013, he wasn't injured - he had just led Wigan to an unlikely victory against Manchester City in the Cup Final.

And Roberto didn't want to sell Jelavic in January 2014 either. Jelavić wanted a move so that he could play more first team football ahead of the World Cup.

Do you still want Jelavic back?

 

[Stanley Parker]

I think it's more interesting to look at what happened last season and try to understand why it went so wrong, it wasn't like Martinez decided to stop doing all the things that made us so good in his first season.

You didn't mention the additional burden of playing Europa League games - and on Thursday nights too.

 

[degsy]

I assume that's only the first set?

don't quite get what that means, but I gave you a like anyway for not being precious and just for being ijjy.

 

[paulbefc]

I wouldn't pass judgement on someone based on what they 'like'. Personally speaking most of the time it is merely an acknowledgement that a post is mildly amusing. To do that would mean that your 'liking' of the juvenile goading by your hero that has occurred today does not portray you in a particularly positive light.

See, you've also 'liked' posts that do exactly that, but I haven't been calling for 'reasoned debate' (mainly because it's close to pointless trying in this thread). I just find the combination of the two mildly amusing is all. No big deal and no judgement here.

 

[LAToffee]

I find this thread really interesting if you go back to the start and work your way through it.

Essentially, people were generally a bit cautious about his appointment because he'd got Wigan relegated. I don't really have any problem with this myself, that was always going to happen eventually and it's worth pointing out that Wenger, Klopp and a number of other top managers got teams relegated before hitting the heights later in their careers (winning the FA Cup with a team like Wigan should at worst cancel this out though in my eyes).

I think it's fair to say that all other than the most sceptical of Everton fans were won over after Martinez's first season - a record points total that would usually be good enough for a top 4 spot and some absolutely brilliant football at times, all done on a negative net spend.

The split (if that's what you want to call it) comes because last season was so poor. Do you judge a manager on just that one season and does what he did before have any bearing on whether you stick with him and show faith? For me it should do, but I don't claim to be right all the time.

I think it's more interesting to look at what happened last season and try to understand why it went so wrong, it wasn't like Martinez decided to stop doing all the things that made us so good in his first season.

I saw (and still see) a lot of stuff about Martinez's "tactical inflexibility", unwillingness to play with two wingers and reliance on Barry etc as the sticks to beat him with. For me, last season wasn't about one thing in particular, it was a number of factors which created a sort of perfect storm.


1) Individual mistakes leading to goals. I believe we still had more than double any other team in the league. Do you blame the manager for this? How does one coach these individual errors out of players? I don't have the answer but it was certainly a big factor in a number of our results.

2) Injuries to key players at inopportune times - every squad deals with injuries, but we had to contend with having injuries to the likes of all of our wide players at any given time or all of our creative players. You have a squad to deal with this sort of thing, but it's difficult to cope if all of the players in a certain position are out. Apart from anything else, it means any underperforming players have to keep playing.

3) Refereeing decisions. They say they average out of the course of a season. B******s. The spate of appalling refereeing decisions (game-changing decisions) we were on the wrong end of between November and January was something I'd never seen before.

4) Key players being in poor form. Again, it's to be expected at certain times and most squads deal with it, but alongside the 2nd point it becomes a bigger problem.

5) The Goodison crowd - since QPR at home I'd never witnessed anything like it before whilst following Everton. The atmosphere was horrible. You can make whatever excuses you like about why the crowd were this way but I'd take issue with anyone who thinks this has had no bearing on our players at all. There were visible reactions from our players at times because of it.

On these points, I'm not sure Martinez shoulders much/any of the blame, but the net result was that confidence was on the floor. The confidence, as much as anything, was the biggest factor in our poor season as far as I'm concerned.

I also don't buy the "tactical inflexibility" argument which a lot of the most vocal "Martinez Out" brigade were trumpeting at the time. I can remember games where we played 4231, 433, 343 and 442. We tried to set up to defend and play on the counter in some games, a purely possession-based game in some and even a few where we employed a lot of long balls, We saw experiments with the likes of Baines at centre mid etc. I don't think a stubborn reliance on a method had anything to do with it, personally.

Having said all that, which is mostly in defence of Martinez and sets out some fairly hefty extenuating circumstances in his favour, he shouldn't be absolved of all blame for the season...

Firstly I think his transfers in 2014 need to be called into serious question. We put all of our eggs into one basket with Lukaku and whilst that was understandable, it meant we had to take a punt on a loan for Christian Atsu to replace Deulofeu, bring Samuel Eto'o in on a free as cover for the injured Kone, rely on an over-the-hill Distin and an inadequate Alcaraz as cover for our two centre backs, rely on McGeady as a serious member of the 1st team squad and count on Gibson's fitness as cover for Gareth Barry and also rely on Pienaar and Osman's fitness as our creative outlets if Barkley wasn't at the races. Besic was the only other arrival and whilst promising, looked raw and not ready to be involved in the 1st team on a regular basis (despite what a few on here would argue). Lukaku aside, the transfers of last summer were largely disastrous.

Secondly, there were simply some odd decisions as far as team selections are concerned. Most notably the insistence on playing Barkley or Naismith out wide which seemed to suck the form out of both of them and also the inexplicable decision to restore Howard to the team after his injury when he had been poor and Robles had played well (a mistake I'm alarmed he has made again this season).

Martinez doesn't escape last season without criticism, but I think a lot of what happened was outside of his control and the various things which were going wrong snowballed and spiralled out of control. I don't think his approach has been markedly different this season, but we have a more settled squad, have got rid of some of the deadwood and alleged trouble makers and whilst injuries haven't been kind, we haven't had to contend with the sort of crises we had in various positions last season.

My argument last season was that we needed to have faith in the manager and that his first season showed that his approach could be one which would be successful if we trusted him. I don't have any issue with the people who wanted him gone at the height of the bad results in December to February, but I maintain that there's enough evidence to simply trust that his approach will pay dividends eventually.

Thoughtful and nuanced post that sees a lot of grey and spreads a lot of blame. What on earth are you doing posting it on this thread? Nearly as nuts as going back to the "start of the thread" and "work[ing] your way through it." What in the name of sweet jesus would possess you to put yourself through that? But cheers for giving me lots of food for thought.

 

[The Equaliser]

See, you've also 'liked' posts that do exactly that, but I haven't been calling for 'reasoned debate' (mainly because it's close to pointless trying in this thread). I just find the combination of the two mildly amusing is all. No big deal and no judgement here.

I think you'll find that what I've liked is good responses to goading, not goading itself.

 

[Prevenger17]

but he has cost us a good 4-6 points this season conservatively.

Where did we lose those points Kit? Bollicked it up against Arsenal, but even then a draw would have been a fair result. So he cost us 1 point there. Won us a point at Spurs. Breaks even by my calculation.

 

[paulbefc]

I think you'll that what I've liked is good responses to goading, not goading itself.

Not really, it's pretty much just responding to goading with identical goading.

Juvenile really, as you say. Certainly not reasoned debate on the ability of the manager.

 

[The Equaliser]

Not really, it's pretty much just responding to goading with identical goading.

Juvenile really, as you say. Certainly not reasoned debate on the ability of the manager.

Well no, actually, it isn't.

 

[paulbefc]

Well no, actually, it isn't.

What place do phrases like "zealots", "worship" "cult" etc have in a "reasoned debate" on the managerial ability of Martinez?

I'm not saying people shouldn't use them in this thread, just wondering where they fit in in this "reasoned debate" thing.

 

[The Equaliser]

What place do phrases like "zealots", "worship" "cult" etc have in a "reasoned debate" on the managerial ability of Martinez?

I'm not saying people shouldn't use them in this thread, just wondering where they fit in in this "reasoned debate" thing.

Never used the first one ever.
Second one is not pejorative at all, if anything it is complimentary. I've worshipped many a player myself.
Never used the third one either. I used the word cultist to describe some of the behaviour on here in a discussion with another poster, not in a debate about Roberto Martinez, nor in an attempt to goad anybody.

It's sad that you are so upset by this that you want to labour this point.

 

[paulbefc]

Never used the first one ever.
Second one is not pejorative at all, if anything it is complimentary. I've worshipped many a player myself.
Never used the third one either. I used the word cultist to describe some of the behaviour on here in a discussion with another poster, not in a debate about Roberto Martinez, nor in an attempt to goad anybody.

It's sad that you are so upset by this that you want to labour this point.

Upset? All I've said is I find asking for reasoned debate and then liking posts blatantly looking to do anything but that, amusing. That's all. It's not that serious.