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Roberto Martinez discussion

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RaleighBlue said:
Who cares what United's manager did for us? Moyes won nothing in 11 years, he is a failure. If Roberto wins nothing he will be a failure, but the book is closed on Moyes, not on Roberto.
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I was responding to someone who was comparing Martinez to Moyes, and concluding that Martinez is better. I don't think there is anywhere near enough evidence to validate that conclusion.

I agree that Moyes took us as far as he could, but I don't agree that he was a failure. He did a very good job, but times change as do circumstances and expectations, so we needed a change, as did he.
 
Dymak said:
I agree that Moyes took us as far as he could, but I don't agree that he was a failure. He did a very good job, but times change as do circumstances and expectations, so we needed a change, as did he.
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I understand this mentality, but disagree with it.

The whole purpose of professional sports is to win. Having won no competition makes you a failure. Not to say he wasn't a very good manager for us, and certainly what we needed at the time; he didn't win, therefore he lost, ergo he failed.
 
RaleighBlue said:
My god there is a lot of negativity here. We've had a bad month or two. Moyes did that too from time to time. Shockingly, we don't have the squad depth to compete with City, or Chelsea, nor do we have mind-blowingly class players like RVP, Rooney, Suarez, Ozil, etc.

Both managers did a pretty damn fine job to keep us up there. At the moment we shouldn't be expecting 4th. Hoping for it, yes, pushing for it, sure. But expecting it? On our budget? I posit that there are only a few managers in history that could get us a CL place with our current squad against the current opposition. If that.

Martinez has done a wonderful job to get us our best point total by this point in a season in years. We've had some pretty wonderful highs so far this season as well. We should have always known that we'd go through a loss of form. We have a small squad that is clearly tiring.

Have mistakes been made. Sure. Would I have loved to see 2-3 (net) bodies in in January? Hell yes, but I also don't know what funds were made available, or the options for that level of outlay.

I'm happier with Martinez because I feel like after 11 years Moyes took us as far as he was going to. Martinez is clearly trying to push us to the next level. But I don't doubt it's an uphill climb, and we may or may not get there. Either way, I'm happy we have someone that will try.

And in the end, I'd rather lose 4-1 and go down swinging than lose 2-1 because we tried to keep it respectable.
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Agree with all of that bar the end sentance. We never played to lose under Moyes, sometimes we had to be secure at the back, sometimes we just lost, we never set out to lose by a small margin, its just daft to even entertain the idea that we would.

I think Moyes built a great team as far as he could, and Martinez has taken it over and could potentially push us forwards beyond Moyes capability... he hasn't yet though despite what some believe, and the fact is we may be at the limit of our performance compared to our budget.
Time will tell but so far I think we've replaced quality with quality in terms of mangers and our new style has more potential than the previous I suspect, but again only time will tell.
 
RaleighBlue said:
My god there is a lot of negativity here. We've had a bad month or two. Moyes did that too from time to time. Shockingly, we don't have the squad depth to compete with City, or Chelsea, nor do we have mind-blowingly class players like RVP, Rooney, Suarez, Ozil, etc.

Both managers did a pretty damn fine job to keep us up there. At the moment we shouldn't be expecting 4th. Hoping for it, yes, pushing for it, sure. But expecting it? On our budget? I posit that there are only a few managers in history that could get us a CL place with our current squad against the current opposition. If that.

Martinez has done a wonderful job to get us our best point total by this point in a season in years. We've had some pretty wonderful highs so far this season as well. We should have always known that we'd go through a loss of form. We have a small squad that is clearly tiring.

Have mistakes been made. Sure. Would I have loved to see 2-3 (net) bodies in in January? Hell yes, but I also don't know what funds were made available, or the options for that level of outlay.

I'm happier with Martinez because I feel like after 11 years Moyes took us as far as he was going to. Martinez is clearly trying to push us to the next level. But I don't doubt it's an uphill climb, and we may or may not get there. Either way, I'm happy we have someone that will try.

And in the end, I'd rather lose 4-1 and go down swinging than lose 2-1 because we tried to keep it respectable.
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Are you telling me that Martinez isn't yet as good as SAF? Do I need to put my mask up on the top shelf in my closet now?
 

Ihaters said:
Agree with all of that bar the end sentance. We never played to lose under Moyes, sometimes we had to be secure at the back, sometimes we just lost, we never set out to lose by a small margin, its just daft to even entertain the idea that we would.
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I suppose that's true.

I feel like Moyes wouldn't have opened up the attacking gates though against Arsenal. He would have stuck with a tight defense first model. I don't think he ever set out to lose (who does?), but I don't remember use pushing people forward as much hunting the necessary goals, and oftentimes leaving us vulnerable at the back.

I don't think it was a choice to lose by a small margin, I think Moyes' philosophy was stay tight at the back and keep the margins close and a goal will be enough. Martinez seems more willing to throw caution to the wind hunting the goal we need.

Sometimes that doesn't work, and sometimes Moyes' method is right, but honestly, I just prefer this method.
 
RaleighBlue said:
I suppose that's true.

I feel like Moyes wouldn't have opened up the attacking gates though against Arsenal. He would have stuck with a tight defense first model. I don't think he ever set out to lose (who does?), but I don't remember use pushing people forward as much hunting the necessary goals, and oftentimes leaving us vulnerable at the back.

I don't think it was a choice to lose by a small margin, I think Moyes' philosophy was stay tight at the back and keep the margins close and a goal will be enough. Martinez seems more willing to throw caution to the wind hunting the goal we need.

Sometimes that doesn't work, and sometimes Moyes' method is right, but honestly, I just prefer this method.
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I didn't watch all of Moyes' teams, but from what I watched his teams have never scared the opposition. Sometimes talented, often relentless, but never scary. No team was afraid of losing to a Moyes side (still the same). Martinez has not reached this place yet, but his aim is clearly to build a side that every opponent is scared to play. Put the other team on the back foot emotionally/mentally and you've got the edge. We'll see what comes of this method, but listening to the Guardian and they're approving of the style with comments such as, "they were the better team at [Stamford Bridge]" or "[Arsenal] knew they were playing to win," etc, etc.

We all want results and so far these don't appear to be vastly different (you can argue that point totals have a large element of randomness to them), but only a blind fool would argue that the style isn't different.

For that I'll praise Martinez, because I like the new style better.
 
Been in the job what, 8, 9 months? Negative net spend and on course for a record(ish) points total (I say record(ish) because some of us know football never started en 1992.)
 
One thing Martinez has highlighted to be is how we pretty much have reached our level now

I mean, I can't see us getting any higher up the table now with out either a New Stadium or Investment in the club (Or ideally both)

Top 6 and having a run in the cup seems about as much as we can hope for unless the teams above us get weaker and the ones below us don't strengthen
 
SerenityNigh said:
I didn't watch all of Moyes' teams, but from what I watched his teams have never scared the opposition. Sometimes talented, often relentless, but never scary. No team was afraid of losing to a Moyes side (still the same). Martinez has not reached this place yet, but his aim is clearly to build a side that every opponent is scared to play. Put the other team on the back foot emotionally/mentally and you've got the edge. We'll see what comes of this method, but listening to the Guardian and they're approving of the style with comments such as, "they were the better team at [Stamford Bridge]" or "[Arsenal] knew they were playing to win," etc, etc.

We all want results and so far these don't appear to be vastly different (you can argue that point totals have a large element of randomness to them), but only a blind fool would argue that the style isn't different.

For that I'll praise Martinez, because I like the new style better.
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Almost no one wanted to play us under Moyes mate.
Ask Fulham fans what they thought of coming to Goodison under Moyes (100% defeats for them)? Or West Ham....
What about Spurs and City, we were regular bogey teams for them.
Moyes took us from whipping boys to a team to be feared by all but a handfull of elite spending teams... at their grounds of course. Plenty of fear from opponents when playing us, especially at Goodison.
Bluemoon was always a good forum to pop onto before an Everton v Man City game. They counted the three points as ours days before kick off. they will be made up we've changed to someone else.
 

Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
One thing Martinez has highlighted to be is how we pretty much have reached our level now

I mean, I can't see us getting any higher up the table now with out either a New Stadium or Investment in the club (Or ideally both)

Top 6 and having a run in the cup seems about as much as we can hope for unless the teams above us get weaker and the ones below us don't strengthen
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Have faith mate, early days still, Martinez will know the squad now and what's needed this summer to fit his plans and fix the broken bits. May still even get us to the promised land this season still.
 
Ihaters said:
Plenty of fear from opponents when playing us, especially at Goodison.
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No side walks into Britannia expecting three points in hand either, but that doesn't mean that teams fear Stoke. There's a vast difference between fearing that a team will be hard to beat and fearing that a small mistake by your side will give away the draw.
 
SerenityNigh said:
No side walks into Britannia expecting three points in hand either, but that doesn't mean that teams fear Stoke. There's a vast difference between fearing that a team will be hard to beat and fearing that a small mistake by your side will give away the draw.
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I would say at the plenty of teams feared us. Esepecially those we kept beating.
 

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