Roberto Martinez discussion

[mythbuster]

What?


an interim assessment should be based on reality, not exaggeration,

Okay, mate, i'll leave that up to you and David Brent.

 

[Dymak]

Okay, mate, i'll leave that up to you and David Brent.

OK, not a problem.

 

[SerenityNigh]

The real money spent on alcaraz will be in wages and signing on fees, which is the difference between bringing in an experienced 30 odd year old international and a kid like gueye.

I happen to think very strongly that we don't need Alcaraz and that paying the wages of both heitinga and alcaraz for 6 months when neither was playing at all and both were on top dollar was beyond stupid.

I doubt it's going to bankrupt us mind. In the long run the prize money from finishing one position higher in the league will pay those extra wages. But given we have browning and stones who could have played the 90 minutes this season where we actually needed him, it's all very McFadden mark 2.

Mind that is nit-picking, I very much think the jury is still out on Martinez in the market but he's defo above average.

Alcaraz isn't a bad signing for insurance, given that Martinez was planning to change styles and had no idea whether Jags or Distin could pass muster in the new system. Imagine if both of these were terribly gash and Martinez was looking to give the reigns to Johnny and Alcaraz. Martinez had no idea what to make of Browning or Stones (except that he fancied Stones when at Wigan).

This description is a stretch by any imagination, but remember what Martinez remarked about how quickly the squad adapted to the new style of play. Given the quick adaptation Alcaraz is a spare part, but provided any difficultly in transition and he may have been a necessary cog.

 

[deipnosophist]

If disagreeing with a viewpoint constitutes having 'a bee in your bonnet', then yes I do. But I don't think it does, I think it is just someone airing their alternative viewpoint on a message board that has been designed for Everton fans to air their viewpoints on what is going on at Everton.

Let me distil this debate between us down to it's essential components.

My original contention (p 89) was that there exists elements within the broad Everton fan base (including those inhabiting other web sites eg Toffeeweb) that are not unhappy to see RM 'fail'. I have engaged in excoriating dialogue with these '5th columnists' , so I KNOW they exist

Your original response to this was : I haven't seen a single person state that they want Martinez to trip up. I have seen some people highlight legitimate concerns, and some people being dismissive of those who have declared unconditional love for Martinez, and people arguing against those who think Martinez can do no wrong. But I haven't seen a single person state that they don't want him to do well.

So, you are of the mind that such lowlifes do not exist because you have not personally evidenced such perfidious behaviour (on GOT or elsewhere).

Whilst I could point out that there are probably quite a lot of pernicious behaviours out there in the big wide world that DO exist (despite your not having personally evidenced them), I think it best if we let the issue subside and just agree to disagree.

OK?

 

[BoysInBlue]

I will give Martinez credit - I know people sometimes dislike his unrelenting positivity, but at least he talks up what this club can achieve and tries to make the players believe:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...verton-boss-Roberto-Martinez-FA-Cup-exit.html

Of course, it is all just that - talk, unless we actually do the business on the pitch. At least he's trying to lift the players though.

 

[canuckblue]

Like any human, he has his flaws and makes mistakes. But he has a helluva lot fewer flaws and makes far fewer mistakes than his predecessor.

 

[D410]

I cannot belive any blue nose wants to see Bobby fail but he should be answerable to hard questions.

I noticed of late that Bobby has suggested that we have failed to address the small margins which has resulted in the club being on the end of a string of important and key defeats of late. Now, I would agree that the players need to wise up and that in itself is a small margin to be fixed but letting a fully fit striker go and adding an unfit player/injured player to the books in the jan window was a huge mistake.

You cannot as a manager have a pop at the players for the recent defeats if you cannot admit your own mistakes which contributed to those defeats as well. eg Jan transfer Window.

 

[Dymak]

Like any human, he has his flaws and makes mistakes. But he has a helluva lot fewer flaws and makes far fewer mistakes than his predecessor.

How have you come to that conclusion?

Bobby's impact on Everton has been nowhere near as extreme as Moyes', yet. And he has a lot to live up to if he is going to better Moyes' performance in the transfer market.

 

[Fuleco]

I'm even starting to doubt the brown shoes and black coat combo.

 

[canuckblue]

For one thing, he's already won at Old Trafford. For another, he's injected a mood of positivity around the club after years of dourness from your boy. And Moyes had some clangers in the transfer market as well, or are you conveniently forgetting the likes of Kroldrup, Bily, Gueye, Van der Meyde, Davies, Beattie, to name a few?

 

[Ihaters]

I'm even starting to doubt the brown shoes and black coat combo.

Never doubt the fashion mate, whatever happens on or off the pitch, that mans style is beyond debate.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

We're no worse with him I think, and even if we are, it's only marginally so

The points tally speaks for itself

Next year may be a more competitive league in regards to the lower half of the table

But year, I'm overall happy with his first year. If we finish 6th or higher, I'll consider it a very decent first season

 

[Dymak]

For one thing, he's already won at Old Trafford. For another, he's injected a mood of positivity around the club after years of dourness from your boy. And Moyes had some clangers in the transfer market as well, or are you conveniently forgetting the likes of Kroldrup, Bily, Gueye, Van der Meyde, Davies, Beattie, to name a few?

Are you really basing it on a single win at Old Trafford against the worst Man United side in living memory? Moyes beat Man United in a Semi-Final at Wembley, but I don't think you can make conclusions on a manager's tenure based on just one single game.

I really don't have to defend Moyes performance in the transfer market, it speaks for itself, and it was what made the biggest difference in changing us from relegation candidates to UEFA Cup candidates during his 11 years, imo.

As for the mood of positivity, it happens a lot when a new manager arrives, and it happened when Moyes arrived as well. If Martinez is still bringing a mood of positivity in 11 years time then that will be great, but I think it is far too early to be classing him as a superior manager to David Moyes, or someone who has had a greater impact on Everton than David Moyes did, because he hasn't, not yet anyway.

 

[RaleighBlue]

My god there is a lot of negativity here. We've had a bad month or two. Moyes did that too from time to time. Shockingly, we don't have the squad depth to compete with City, or Chelsea, nor do we have mind-blowingly class players like RVP, Rooney, Suarez, Ozil, etc.

Both managers did a pretty damn fine job to keep us up there. At the moment we shouldn't be expecting 4th. Hoping for it, yes, pushing for it, sure. But expecting it? On our budget? I posit that there are only a few managers in history that could get us a CL place with our current squad against the current opposition. If that.

Martinez has done a wonderful job to get us our best point total by this point in a season in years. We've had some pretty wonderful highs so far this season as well. We should have always known that we'd go through a loss of form. We have a small squad that is clearly tiring.

Have mistakes been made. Sure. Would I have loved to see 2-3 (net) bodies in in January? Hell yes, but I also don't know what funds were made available, or the options for that level of outlay.

I'm happier with Martinez because I feel like after 11 years Moyes took us as far as he was going to. Martinez is clearly trying to push us to the next level. But I don't doubt it's an uphill climb, and we may or may not get there. Either way, I'm happy we have someone that will try.

And in the end, I'd rather lose 4-1 and go down swinging than lose 2-1 because we tried to keep it respectable.

 

[RaleighBlue]

but I think it is far too early to be classing him as a superior manager to David Moyes, or someone who has had a greater impact on Everton than David Moyes did, because he hasn't, not yet anyway.

Who cares what United's manager did for us? Moyes won nothing in 11 years, he is a failure. If Roberto wins nothing he will be a failure, but the book is closed on Moyes, not on Roberto.