Roberto Martinez discussion

[boris]

Is Martinez really getting criticised for bringing back in to the team his 2nd biggest buy and one of our best players of the last 18 months. I thought we couldn't defend so naturally picking one if the best ball winners around who we've clearly missed from the moment he went off vs Bournmouth is only a natural decision. Add in the fact that he then got an important assist in his short period in the pitch and I can't quite see what he's done wrong.

He then goes off so is replaced by Cleverley who's been very good in McCarthys absence but doesn't offer the same attributes as McCarthy. Cleverley also plays very well when he gets on. He also provides a great assist yet this is bad, he shouldn't be on the pitch doing these things??? I'm confused here, I really am.

 

[Eggs]

Is Martinez really getting criticised for bringing back in to the team his 2nd biggest buy and one of our best players of the last 18 months. I thought we couldn't defend so naturally picking one if the best ball winners around who we've clearly missed from the moment he went off vs Bournmouth is only a natural decision. Add in the fact that he then got an important assist in his short period in the pitch and I can't quite see what he's done wrong.

He then goes off so is replaced by Cleverley who's been very good in McCarthys absence but doesn't offer the same attributes as McCarthy. Cleverley also plays very well when he gets on. He also provides a great assist yet this is bad, he shouldn't be on the pitch doing these things??? I'm confused here, I really am.

.....Barry used a key word in his after match comments, 'formation'. For me, it wasn't about who went off and who came on it was about players aligning to a defensive team shape when we don't have possession of the football. We look tactically devoid.

 

[Stan Lee Park]

Is Martinez really getting criticised for bringing back in to the team his 2nd biggest buy and one of our best players of the last 18 months. I thought we couldn't defend so naturally picking one if the best ball winners around who we've clearly missed from the moment he went off vs Bournmouth is only a natural decision. Add in the fact that he then got an important assist in his short period in the pitch and I can't quite see what he's done wrong.

He then goes off so is replaced by Cleverley who's been very good in McCarthys absence but doesn't offer the same attributes as McCarthy. Cleverley also plays very well when he gets on. He also provides a great assist yet this is bad, he shouldn't be on the pitch doing these things??? I'm confused here, I really am.

I think the question being asked was whether either of them were ready to play in that game after their recent injuries.. Of course, we'll never know the answer to that.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Is Martinez really getting criticised for bringing back in to the team his 2nd biggest buy and one of our best players of the last 18 months. I thought we couldn't defend so naturally picking one if the best ball winners around who we've clearly missed from the moment he went off vs Bournmouth is only a natural decision. Add in the fact that he then got an important assist in his short period in the pitch and I can't quite see what he's done wrong.

He then goes off so is replaced by Cleverley who's been very good in McCarthys absence but doesn't offer the same attributes as McCarthy. Cleverley also plays very well when he gets on. He also provides a great assist yet this is bad, he shouldn't be on the pitch doing these things??? I'm confused here, I really am.

Both players ended up injured. Bad luck? Of course, but Martinez increased the chance of both happening by unnecessarily rushing back McCarthy who didn't look fit at all, and playing Cleverley twice in three days. Meanwhile Besic Gibson and Osman sit on the bench fit and fresh. Why have them in the squad if he has no intention of using them?

 

[boris]

.....Barry used a key word in his after match comments, 'formation'. For me, it wasn't about who went off and who came on it was about players aligning to a defensive team shape when we don't have possession of the football. We look tactically devoid.

I agree, as I've said on numerous occasions in this thread alone, it's not the personel, it's what they're been asked to do IMO.

I think the question being asked was whether either of them were ready to play in that game after their recent injuries.. Of course, we'll never know the answer to that.

That will come from physios and fitness staff not Martinez. The player will also have a say.

 

[boris]

Both players ended up injured. Bad luck? Of course, but Martinez increased the chance of both happening by unnecessarily rushing back McCarthy who didn't look fit at all, and playing Cleverley twice in three days. Meanwhile Besic Gibson and Osman sit on the bench fit and fresh. Why have them in the squad if he has no intention of using them?

He will have been told McCarthy is over his injury, there's only one way to get match fitness and that's by playing games.

Gibson and Osman will be gone as soon as there contracts are up or as soon as we get anyone willing to take them off our hands. It's quite clear he doesn't want either but this go back to my posts about this not yet being his squad. He can't banish them completely whilst they're still on the pay role but he can't change every single player over night, it all takes time and until there wage his gone they can't be replaced and he may still need to use them as there 1st team squad members.

I think he sees Besic as Barry's long term replacement not a box to box player like Cleverley and McCarthy. We'll see a lot of Besic in years to come but not playing the role he asks of McCarthy or Cleverley.

As for not playing players in case they get injured then suggesting he should have picked Osman or Gibson to prevent this happening, you do realise the irony in this don't you. Osman and Gibson are never fit or fresh now a days and you only have to see the criticism Martinez got for bringing Osman on as a sub at Newcastle to see how well playing him would of went down, particularly if he'd played ahead of Cleverley. I'm sure his retractors wouldn't have mentioned it.

 

[Saint Domingo]

He will have been told McCarthy is over his injury, there's only one way to get match fitness and that's by playing games.

Gibson and Osman will be gone as soon as there contracts are up or as soon as we get anyone willing to take them off our hands. It's quite clear he doesn't want either but this go back to my posts about this not yet being his squad. He can't banish them completely whilst they're still on the pay role but he can't change every single player over night, it all takes time and until there wage his gone they can't be replaced and he may still need to use them as there 1st team squad members.

I think he sees Besic as Barry's long term replacement not a box to box player like Cleverley and McCarthy. We'll see a lot of Besic in years to come but not playing the role he asks of McCarthy or Cleverley.

As for not playing players in case they get injured then suggesting he should have picked Osman or Gibson to prevent this happening, you do realise the irony in this don't you. Osman and Gibson are never fit or fresh now a days and you only have to see the criticism Martinez got for bringing Osman on as a sub at Newcastle to see how well playing him would of went down, particularly if he'd played ahead of Cleverley. I'm sure his retractors wouldn't have mentioned it.

It can attempt to be rationalised however you like it. The outcome of the situation is two substantial injuries to two of his key midfielders. Maybe for once Martinez just made a mistake rather than the unfortunate coincidences of the universe conspiring against him.

He's bought plenty of midfielders since being here. After 5 transfer windows this old excuse of 'it's not his squad' is wearing thin. The sooner people accept that Martinez is responsible for everything good and bad on the playing front perhaps we'll start to foster a greater culture of accountability throughout the club rather than the blame shifting one the likes of Elstone, Martinez, Howard etc. have all perfected so well.

 

[lancs blue]

If players are not fit for purpose pay up their contracts and get rid. One way or the other you have to pay their wages. As to Gibson did the drink drive charge not bring the club into disrepute. Could his contract have not been cancelled on that alone?

 

[boris]

It can attempt to be rationalised however you like it. The outcome of the situation is two substantial injuries to two of his key midfielders. Maybe for once Martinez just made a mistake rather than the unfortunate coincidences of the universe conspiring against him.

He's bought plenty of midfielders since being here. After 5 transfer windows this old excuse of 'it's not his squad' is wearing thin. The sooner people accept that Martinez is responsible for everything good and bad on the playing front perhaps we'll start to foster a greater culture of accountability throughout the club rather than the blame shifting one the likes of Elstone, Martinez, Howard etc. have all perfected so well.

We may as well leave this one here.

If you think any manager can change 20+ players within 2 & 1/2 years for players he wants and not accept 2nd best, at any club never mind a club like Everton, then there's not really any point discussing football related matters with you, it's clearly not your forte.

There's a few things that Martinez needs to sort out, no one is disputing that, but there's nothing to see here I'm afraid.

 

[hullefc]

Seems like you need to answer your own question. Rather than picking and choosing maybe just take the defensive stats overall. If I had to guess? Perhaps a bi-product of the more negative approach we have taken to away games? But then shutting up shop for a few 1-0 wins like Newcastle doesn't fit with our 'entertainers' tag does it from heavyweights such as Georgie Bingham (I'm still laughing now).

The defensive stats overall are 19 conceded at home and 9 away. The 6th best in the league better than City (edit not city Manu) and Arsenal. So Martinez does do defending and nothing like the 'doesn't do defending' he has been pilloried with. I would hazard a guess - but would have to consult Georgie Bingham as a matter of course - that we have concede less in this half of the season than we have every done. Only a guess mind you. Might be wrong.

So all we need to do is practise long and hard on the training ground what we do before away games and replicate that for the home games. No need for a defensive coach because all they would do is come in ask what the coaches are doing to prepare us for our away game and do the same. We are as 'entertaining' away from home as we are at home.

So it seems easy - do what we do away at home and the 'problem' will be solved. And we can still be the entertainers so beloved by Georgie Bingham.

 

[Ashtonian]

The defensive stats overall are 19 conceded at home and 9 away. The 6th best in the league better than City and Arsenal. So Martinez does do defending and nothing like the 'doesn't do defending' he has been pilloried with. I would hazard a guess - but would have to consult Georgie Bingham as a matter of course - that we have concede less in this half of the season than we have every done. Only a guess mind you. Might be wrong.

So all we need to do is practise long and hard on the training ground what we do before away games and replicate that for the home games. No need for a defensive coach because all they would do is come in ask what the coaches are doing to prepare us for our away game and do the same. We are as 'entertaining' away from home as we are at home.

So it seems easy - do what we do away at home and the 'problem' will be solved. And we can still be the entertainers so beloved by Georgie Bingham.

Ahh mate thats the difference.

We may well be 6th best defence for goals conceded, but how many of our conceded goals have led to dropped points? How many league places are we off because we have conceded those goals? It's like stoke conceded 3 against us, but they still won the game. But palace's only meaningful attempt = goal, norwich first shot on target (i think) = goal, bournemouth =3 goals, leiscter = 3 goals despite not really threatening howard, liverpool hardly had a shot = a goal.

Point is mate, most of the goals mentioned above are all very similar in how we conceded them, and although we haven't let in 4-5 goals every week, each goal has led to at least 2 less points a game. the fact we don't let in 4-5 goals every week is down to our defenders knowing how to do their jobs, the fact we are giving the same type of goals away? That is down to the manager and his organisation.

 

[Bluebonic]

Ol brownshoes has been found out mate!

 

[hullefc]

Ahh mate thats the difference.

We may well be 6th best defence for goals conceded, but how many of our conceded goals have led to dropped points? How many league places are we off because we have conceded those goals? It's like stoke conceded 3 against us, but they still won the game. But palace's only meaningful attempt = goal, norwich first shot on target (i think) = goal, bournemouth =3 goals, leiscter = 3 goals despite not really threatening howard, liverpool hardly had a shot = a goal.

Point is mate, most of the goals mentioned above are all very similar in how we conceded them, and although we haven't let in 4-5 goals every week, each goal has led to at least 2 less points a game. the fact we don't let in 4-5 goals every week is down to our defenders knowing how to do their jobs, the fact we are giving the same type of goals away? That is down to the manager and his organisation.

So the defenders know how to do their jobs away from home with the managers organisation - the 6th best away record for goals concede with that organisation - but they don't do their jobs with the managers home organisation. Fine. Get the players to replicate the away organisation at home. Bingo - problem solved.

I will have to look at the similarity between Scott Dann's header and Ings - very similar. And the 2 penalties scored by Leicester and Hoolahans close finish at Norwich not cleared off the line. To Stoke's Shaquiri's goal and some of Bournemouth's. I would hazard a guess that there are similarities as much as there are differences.

I have every confidence that the players will replicate our away defensive record at home.

 

[hullefc]

Is Martinez really getting criticised for bringing back in to the team his 2nd biggest buy and one of our best players of the last 18 months. I thought we couldn't defend so naturally picking one if the best ball winners around who we've clearly missed from the moment he went off vs Bournmouth is only a natural decision. Add in the fact that he then got an important assist in his short period in the pitch and I can't quite see what he's done wrong.

He then goes off so is replaced by Cleverley who's been very good in McCarthys absence but doesn't offer the same attributes as McCarthy. Cleverley also plays very well when he gets on. He also provides a great assist yet this is bad, he shouldn't be on the pitch doing these things??? I'm confused here, I really am.

Confusion comes with the territory I'm afraid. I'm really surprised you can't see what Martinez has done wrong when all and sundry can.

 

[Ashtonian]

So the defenders know how to do their jobs away from home with the managers organisation - the 6th best away record for goals concede with that organisation - but they don't do their jobs with the managers home organisation. Fine. Get the players to replicate the away organisation at home. Bingo - problem solved.

I will have to look at the similarity between Scott Dann's header and Ings - very similar. And the 2 penalties scored by Leicester and Hoolahans close finish at Norwich not cleared off the line. To Stoke's Shaquiri's goal and some of Bournemouth's. I would hazard a guess that there are similarities as much as there are differences.

I have every confidence that the players will replicate our away defensive record at home.

most of our goals conceded were in the box and either headers or around the 6 yard area. Can't comment on stokes goals as admittedly didn't see them, and Leicester we gave them 2 of theirs from the spot so it's not like they tried (plus the LC fan on here conceded before kick off they don't do well at set pieces). but overall the goals are similar over the course of the what? 19 games? West brom scored similar, arsenal put the ball in the same spot 8 yards from goal twice, newcastles best chances came from headers around the 6 yard box, 2 of bournemoths goals were in the box headers/ set pieces, norwich was a set piece (wasn't it?), liverpool set piece and 6 yard box, west brom scored at least one from there, palace set piece/six yard box. All off the top of my head. From my calculation looking at the above, if we knew how to defend these specific scenarios we would be 8 points better off? that is 4 draws into wins (liverpool/norwich/palace/west brom).

Massive difference to the outlook of our season , especially if you see it as then 5 points off the top with the best striker in the league scoring for fun nearly every week, compared to an 18 goal striker which is literally achieving us nothing league wise!