Roberto Martinez discussion

[davek]

I did not suggest that we stop our attacking play but you need balance. If you are losing you need to score, If you are winning you need to be able to defend and that might mean making subs. A lead in games is the balance point we as a team want, and when we have it we need to be able to preserve it. BALANCE

That's what I said!

 

[boris]

Ah, another post where we are asked to whitewash over his Wigan era... oh, apart from the Cup of course.

Agendas eh. You voted Conservative didn't you, you little rascal.

why would we want to whitewash it, his Wigan era made him there most successful manager ever.

Just a post asking for truth, not lies so we can all have a normal discussion.

There's no point discussing nonsense, surely you agree.

 

[davek]

I've never felt it was fair to credit this to martinez. They've had a succession of succesful managers of whom roberto was just one. Jackett got them out of the 4th flight, martinez out of the 3rd, rodgers out of the 2nd and Laudrup to their first trophy.

I think it's just a well run club.

There's a consensus that Roberto gave them their style of play and laid down a blueprint for them which has provided the basis for their PL success.

 

[chicoazul]

Uh oh, here's Mossad.

If that's as close as you can get to proving that I wanted Tong Pulis or Brendan Rodgers - or perhaps even both - to manage Everton, then I'm doing OK.

Sorry man, it was the best I could find.

Well done.

 

[hullefc]

That's an amazing transformation in such a short time in terms of away success rate. It must chime in with the increases in revenue all are experiencing now. I mean, look at Stoke: a few years ago we'd have had to contend with Crouch and Kenwyne Jones, now they have Bojan, Arnautovic and Shaqiri.

On us in particular: I heard Roberto saying post Stoke game that these players cant help themselves going forward at any time during the game - that must be even more the case with 35,000 people screaming you on and you already have the lead. I think he has to move in those situations and make changes of a defensive nature: bring a forward off and get a defensive minded player on, and - as you imply - have Barkley slip back to make a 3 in midfield patrolling the back four (which doesn't stop us breaking out from that if the opposition break down high up the pitch).

I can appreciate maybe what is Martinez's thinking with these players: you dont want them going too often in negative patterns. But the late reversals from winning positions are going to have even more impact on confidence than that.

That is were your senior pros come in. And why Jags coming back - even though he isn't the biggest shouter - will help as will Baines. The best thing about it is that there is a conversation between players, coaches and the manager about the defending, as Barry revealed. The confidence of our young players is paramount while we sort the defensive side of our game at home. But I don't think it will be a problem. I'm amazed how strong mentally Galloway is and that his confidence didn't suffer after the City game. Not many youngsters wouldn't have buckled after the City game and the tough time Navas gave him in the first half. That experience has set him in good stead. The same with Stones who has had a rough time of late and is 'expected' to step up to the mark even though he is still learning his trade and it shows. He has had to deal with it. Working on the training ground will also help him to iron out some rawness in his defending and heading - attacking the ball and not wait for it.

Football tactics and how the game is played moves on. A manager needs to be observant of these trends. The high energy athleticism being shown in the premier league is one such point. It is like going back all those years when continental teams found it difficult to play against such aggressive English teams play - hence the winning of all those European cups by English sides. . And getting Peter Vint in to work on all aspects of performance including stamina and fitness will bring its rewards. Shows that Martinez is not stuck in his ways and is stubborn. But has responded to different developments.

I don't think Martinez asking them to curtail their attacking instincts will lead to a more negative approach. But I see your point. Deulofeu gets back more readily this time around that when he was here last time, but it hasn't been at the expense of his attacking side. I can see Barkley coming back more if and when needed to 'see out the game'. Or Martinez making a 'defensive' sub to see out the game. Something that will have been part of the conversation that is going on, I would assume.

Sunday's game should be a cracker. The Entertainers will delight the viewing public and maybe they will bombard Sky and BT to demand that we are on the TV more.

 

[Furey1878]

Let's just wait until the end of the season eh, lads?

In the meantime can we not just post silly pictures of random star wars puppets?

 

[Carlito]

Sorry man, it was the best I could find.

Well done.

I have to say, I'm a bit alarmed by the Pulis bashing that's been going on lately.

Crystanbul, never forget.

 

[vagant59]

That's what I said!

Well now we have found some common ground, someone needs to tell the management

 

[orly]

There's a consensus that Roberto gave them their style of play and laid down a blueprint for them which has provided the basis for their PL success.

http://www.jacktoaking.com/

You won't like this Dave, most of the credit goes to Brenda

This lad also says 'Don't forget Kenny' (Jackett, before you start getting excited like in the RS thread)

Now, this is interesting. Are we saying the former managers should take credit for the work of the current incumbent?

 

[Allezfan]

Moyes did better points per pound here than martinez did at wigan. I did a thread on it upon martinez being appointed.

The three significent statistics were as followed:

If you were judging that the team who spent the most on transfers and wages would finish 1st and the team who spent the least would finish 20th then in the four seasons in which both moyes and martinez were employed at everton and wigan, Moyes finished 5 2/3 places better than the money dictates and Martinez only finished an average 2 2/3 places better.

If you were judging them compared to how many points other teams got by spending the same money then Moyes 55.86 acts like 83 million spent elsewhere and Martinez' 36.57 million acts like 45 million spent elsewhere.

So you'd expect 148% out of Moyes and 123% out of Martinez.

The problem with that is you're judging Moyes on a team he's been in for 8 years vs how martinez is doing with a new team.

So if instead you look at their first 3 seasons at everton and wigan respectively than in Moyes first three seasons he spent an average of 3.0% of the leagues total spending and finished 7th, 17th and 4th and in Martinez' first three seasons he spent an average of 2.07% spending of the leagues total and finished 16th, 16th and 15th.

Again Moyes did better.

In Martinez' favour wigan's money isn't the same as everton's money as everton has more to offer a player outside wages and if he can get 123% out of wigan he might easily get 150% out of better players like everton's as they'll take to his style better. And also martinez had to sell players and let players go on frees to a much greater extent than Moyes did here. And personally I view winning the fa cup as more important than finishing 5th.

But no you're right @orly Moyes overperformed his budget at everton to a greater extent than martinez did at Wigan.

I just don't think that's a useful metric for judging him.

 

[chicoazul]

I have to say, I'm a bit alarmed by the Pulis bashing that's been going on lately.

Crystanbul, never forget.

100%, I'd bulldoze the Dixie Dean statue outside the Park End and lash one up of Pulis in a heartbeat for his services to Evertonianism.

 

[Woolly Blue]

Exactly.

Under bruce they had the 15th largest wages in the league and when they stayed up under martinez they had the 15th, 15th and 17th biggest wages and then when went down they paid the 19th largest wages. The first time under the later two managers where they paid one of the lowest three wages they went down. That was something martinez couldn't cope with but Jewell who had the 18th lowest wages in both of his seasons, could.

The interesting thing about combining those two things from an outside point of view, is jewell spent 9 million net on transfers, bruce less than a million and Martinez made more than 11 million in the market. And the change seems to mean not less money being spent but rather a change of tactics. Jewell kept his team up (and indeed into the top half and to a cup final) while paying them basically championship wages (the third lowest wages in the league). By the time Bruce took over someone clearly decided that they weren't going to keep staying out of the bottom 3 without offering more money as wages than that as they wouldn't be able to either attract or keep players of the standard required.

Since then they've made an effort to be paying at least more money in wages than 3 to 5 other teams. (Though I suspect Whelan has a wage cap of 40 million and that's why Bruce left.) And they made up this money by not spending all their outgoing transfer fees.

Again I suspect Martinez had been told by Whelan that his wage bill has to be below 40 million and anything above 35 has to be funded by outgoing transfers. In short they were gambling that they're good enough at buying low and selling high to pay a wage good enough to attract players good enough for 17th. They're not gambling on a manager who uses tactics and motivation to get players on low wages to play better than the market dictates like they were under jewell (again they went down the season when their wage bill was one of the bottom 3 in the league for the first time since Jewell). The manager's main job, under that plan, is to raise money in the market, which Martinez and Bruce had done excellently in.

It was almost inevitable that when the other clubs around them started matching their wages without having to fund that by selling their best players that Wigan would go down, and so they did. Partly this can be put as a failing of the manager, Martinez simply wasn't capable of producing a team who over 38 games would perform better than their agents reckoned their players would, his team was basically the sum of it's parts. If he paid 50k a week to eleven players then his team played like a team worth 550k a week, managers like allardyce, moyes and jewell who favour organistaion and systems over individual brilliance tend to get their teams higher than the wage bill dictates, martinez didn't. But I think the financial situation was basically a strightjacket for him in that the need to sell to fund his own budget stopped him ever being able to advance his team as he had to tear it apart every year and it was almost inevitable he would fail eventually.

But the point was he was the only manager from wigan to not be given money for wages and also not be giving money for transfers so his job was harder than that of the previous managers and so you can't argue that he did a worse job than them, even if you ignore the FA Cup.

You don't seriously expect me to read all thst do you ? ( I did though )

My take on his time at Wigan. He did better than you could realistically expect given the finances. A Bruce type manager might have kept them up by being more pragmatic but they'd have been trophyless.

Moving onto Everton. We have better players so his philosophy should have more success here. So he should be expected to be at, or roundabout, a league position commensurate with our relative revenue.

Given he outperformed his revenue a bit at Wigan, you might expect him to do the same here.

TL;DR ? ( and who could blame you ? )

Give or take, we should be finishing 6th to 9th under Martinez.

 

[Furey1878]

You don't seriously expect me to read all thst do you ? ( I did though )

My take on his time at Wigan. He did better than you could realistically expect given the finances. A Bruce type manager might have kept them up by being more pragmatic but they'd have been trophyless.

Moving onto Everton. We have better players so his philosophy should have more success here. So he should be expected to be at, or roundabout, a league position commensurate with our relative revenue.

Given you outperformed his revenue a bit at Wigan, you might expect him to do the same here.

TL;DR ? ( and who could blame you ? )

Give or take, we should be finishing 6th to 9th under Martinez.

The tl;dr version of @Allezfan's post was that Martinez lost his best players every year and I believe the most he ever spent on players in one season was around 10 mil, and that's just money out, not including money in which was always more than money out.

Obviously you can't say that Wigan were destined to go down or that no manager could have kept them up, but when you look at where they are now, a mere 2.5 years on, then it's certainly suggests that the squad wasn't exactly Premier League calibre.

 

[Allezfan]

You don't seriously expect me to read all thst do you ? ( I did though )

My take on his time at Wigan. He did better than you could realistically expect given the finances. A Bruce type manager might have kept them up by being more pragmatic but they'd have been trophyless.

Moving onto Everton. We have better players so his philosophy should have more success here. So he should be expected to be at, or roundabout, a league position commensurate with our relative revenue.

Given you outperformed his revenue a bit at Wigan, you might expect him to do the same here.

TL;DR ? ( and who could blame you ? )

Give or take, we should be finishing 6th to 9th under Martinez.

League positions have never mattered much to me.

Since the heysel ban was over up until martinez got apppointed, we had 3 europa qualifications, 1 cl qualifcation, and 1 trophy. Martinez's job was primarly to add to those 3 totals.

He managed the first of the 3, hopefully he'll tick off another of those 3 boxes this year.

 

[orly]

Serious post this time.

The thing is, people are saying that the current football that we play is the best we've played in decades.

Totally disagree - a Martinez side has certainly played the best football, but it isn't this one, it's the one from his first season. Not only could they rampage forwards (3-0 at home to Arsenal being the highpoint) but defend, too. 'Total' performances. Inherited defensive strength and an unleashed forward line. Best of both worlds.

My major contention with Martinez is that despite his platitudes, his major failing is that he fails to appreciate that which has has inherited. Does he overcredit himself for the first season? Maybe. Has he failed to improve the senior players already here when he arrived - again, maybe - not many of them have become better players. I can see why people get angry with the Wigan comparisons, but had he worked and maintained the solidity he inherited while then improving the attack, we would not have had the last 18 months, in the way Wigan wouldn't have nose dived. If I have the materials for a very solid one bedroom house, which I can improve year on year, why build a posey three-floor gaff that blows over in the wind? That's my contention with his Wigan side; tried to over-complicate it with players who couldn't do it, to the detriment of the club in the long term. No point in your hedge fund having a bumper bonuses year if it goes bust the next year, ask Glenncore.

Genuinely, I think the Stoke result and performance was so farcical (to score 3 goals and lose) might be the breaking point. It's become self-parody. It would be massively Everton (and a de facto step in the right direction) if we beat Spurs 2-0. He's got the personnel to play a tight game, he's got the time to - let's see if he has the will.