Roberto Martinez discussion

[hallamblue]

6 wins is pathetic, only the bottom 3 have won fewer games than us. On the other hand, 5 losses is great, only 3 teams have fewer. The season can still go either way, and the next 2 games are massive. Beat Swansea and Newcastle at home, and we'd have won 2 in a row for the first time in living memory and no doubt be in the top half with a chance of Europe. Draw with both or win one, lose one and we'll be 11th or 12th and the league season will be over. Lose both and we are in a relegation battle.

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

I think that's a bit of a broad brush statement. There are plenty who see it from both sides.

I just think there is a feeling of divine right to be up there, to be successful, which is based on the distant past.

Take the comparisons to WH for example. Sure weve won 9 titles etc but it's got nothing to do with the teams here and now. Yet some act like it's a stat that will mean we will always have a better team, be a better club. When we see them do well and sit in a lofty position, jealousy takes over and we then look to blame something/someone, and its usually the manager.

What the manager here is building is far superior to what Bilic is, squad wise. Let them have their season above us if it comes to that, because the way it's going I believe in a year or two we will have a team that is challenging again on all fronts. West ham won't imo.

Again, agree with much of that but it's very assumptive in the sense that BILIC (for eg) isn't doing likewise, again that becomes kinda 'well our build's better than his build'. And although it seems it is it may not be. And on that note...

My HUGE concern with this isn't what he's aiming for, I get that, and I GENUINELY see the possibilities....oh, and it's not a case of 'wanting it all now' either, we haven't had 'it' for so long that it's pretty well null as a demand of our team...no, it's the actual process of getting there and who'll see it out 'til the end that irks. We all know what modern football is and players are gonna kiss any badge as long as the money's right, or the kudos or whatever...my issue, hugely, is his ability to adapt and correct the failings that - whatever camp or fence you sit in/on - are pretty clear and pretty repetitive. And, again, you can't discount his time at WIGAN, YES...it's a TOTALLY different circumstance/squad/everything...but the constant remains, and that constant is defensive frailty and an inability to close & kill games. It can't be denied nor, given the 'staff' he currently has, excused...

But I also get, y'know, he's learning too. (I suppose) But what pressure's he under to do so quickly, he's probably in one of the safest jobs in football because he's not actually expected to achieve ANYTHING really is he...

So, yes, the attacking and forward play is ace at times but all the stats in the world don't make a smidge of a difference to the table, that remains FACT. And (...and this isn't saying we are bigger than we are) given the squad, well, it's simply not good enough for me, it's under-performing HUGELY for the set of players they are.

There are people on here, in this lovely gaff, who bang on about the entertaining togger and how 'even the pundits love watching us'. All that. Well most of the pundits I've read/watched are kinda saying the same thing too, yes, it's groovy and exciting but, y'know, it needs addressing because this is a much better squad than the position/form show...

That said, here's to a SWANSEA win & a BIG perfomance at SITTEH. That's the thing we all have in common eh...

 

[hallamblue]

Again, agree with much of that but it's very assumptive in the sense that BILIC (for eg) isn't doing likewise, again that becomes kinda 'well our build's better than his build'. And although it seems it is it may not be. And on that note...

My HUGE concern with this isn't what he's aiming for, I get that, and I GENUINELY see the possibilities....oh, and it's not a case of 'wanting it all now' either, we haven't had 'it' for so long that it's pretty well null as a demand of our team...no, it's the actual process of getting there and who'll see it out 'til the end that irks. We all know what modern football is and players are gonna kiss any badge as long as the money's right, or the kudos or whatever...my issue, hugely, is his ability to adapt and correct the failings that - whatever camp or fence you sit in/on - are pretty clear and pretty repetitive. And, again, you can't discount his time at WIGAN, YES...it's a TOTALLY different circumstance/squad/everything...but the constant remains, and that constant is defensive frailty and an inability to close & kill games. It can't be denied nor, given the 'staff' he currently has, excused...

But I also get, y'know, he's learning too. (I suppose) But what pressure's he under to do so quickly, he's probably in one of the safest jobs in football because he's not actually expected to achieve ANYTHING really is he...

So, yes, the attacking and forward play is ace at times but all the stats in the world don't make a smidge of a difference to the table, that remains FACT. And (...and this isn't saying we are bigger than we are) given the squad, well, it's simply not good enough for me, it's under-performing HUGELY for the set of players they are.

There are people on here, in this lovely gaff, who bang on about the entertaining togger and how 'even the pundits love watching us'. All that. Well most of the pundits I've read/watched are kinda saying the same thing too, yes, it's groovy and exciting but, y'know, it needs addressing because this is a much better squad than the position/form show...

That said, here's to a SWANSEA win & a BIG perfomance at SITTEH. That's the thing we all have in common eh...

Is he learning though, that's the question. Evidence this season would suggest he may be, to some extent. We have bored a couple of 0-0s, and a scrappy 1-0 at Newcastle. However, he still hasn't addressed the goalkeeper or the overplaying at the back.

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

Is he learning though, that's the question. Evidence this season would suggest he may be, to some extent. We have bored a couple of 0-0s, and a scrappy 1-0 at Newcastle. However, he still hasn't addressed the goalkeeper or the overplaying at the back.

He was addressing THAT last January.

Again, from last JANUARY, this quote...

"That’s what naturally happens in a football team,” added Martínez. Of course, this is a period when you are judging players. When things are going well you don’t want to disrupt anything, you don’t want to lose anything, and when things are going against you, you need to find solutions.

“Even more so in our dressing room because the expectations were very different to where we are now.”

My vision is to create a team that can become a winning team. Losing games forces you to try and find solutions and to look inside in a different way than when you win.

Injuries have been a constant disruption, especially in terms of having a settled defence, and Martínez wants a new, long-term goalkeeper from the January window after Tim Howard was ruled out until mid-February with a calf problem. “There are certain positions where you need continuity and consistency because of the players’ understanding,” said Martínez, who may consider a move for Ali al-Habsi at Wigan Athletic. “The centre-halves and goalkeeper is one such unit and we have had too many changes in there.”

I'm not being overly picky nor trying to lampoon him either. It's just that, y'know, it's the same disco a year on innit.

 

[hallamblue]

He was addressing THAT last January.

Again, from last JANUARY, this quote...

"That’s what naturally happens in a football team,” added Martínez. Of course, this is a period when you are judging players. When things are going well you don’t want to disrupt anything, you don’t want to lose anything, and when things are going against you, you need to find solutions.

“Even more so in our dressing room because the expectations were very different to where we are now.”

My vision is to create a team that can become a winning team. Losing games forces you to try and find solutions and to look inside in a different way than when you win.

Injuries have been a constant disruption, especially in terms of having a settled defence, and Martínez wants a new, long-term goalkeeper from the January window after Tim Howard was ruled out until mid-February with a calf problem. “There are certain positions where you need continuity and consistency because of the players’ understanding,” said Martínez, who may consider a move for Ali al-Habsi at Wigan Athletic. “The centre-halves and goalkeeper is one such unit and we have had too many changes in there.”

I'm not being overly picky nor trying to lampoon him either. It's just that, y'know, it's the same disco a year on innit.

Considering a move for Ali al Habsi . He knew that we needed to pay top dollar for Centre Forward, he needs to realise that a goalie is as important and get it sorted before he loses his job, and the first thing the new manager does is get a new keeper!

 

[bicycleheader]

Agree on this, Moyes came in post Walter Smith, with a shocking Squad that had the likes of Paul Gerrard, Pistone, Alexandersen and Scott Gemmill in the first team, and was able to being in the likes of Li Tie. While Martinez was able to get Lukaku. But Moyes took us forward, in hard times, while Martinez looks like keeping us at the top of the bottom half of the table for the foreseeble future.
Martinez dosen't know how lucky he is after taking Wigan down to get what was a stable top 6 club until he turned up.

I wouldn´t mind all the mentioning of Moyes so much, as its valid to compare new boss with ex boss, but the comments rarely take all into account and only show whatever bias the poster wants to show.

For me Moyes initial achievements were excellent. However, taking a group of professional footballers and drilling them to be a solid deep lying unit that clears the lines a lot should be generally easier to do than get a team to implement an open passing style. It also asks for less technical ability of the players involved, helping to even out somewhat the imbalance between one team vs another even if the oppo has better players.

This does not talk down what Moyes did, nor excuse how we are doing right now but its still a valid point IMO and as I´m a bit tired of saying, things are not as black and white as most posters like to make it out to be.

 

[bicycleheader]

He was addressing THAT last January.

Again, from last JANUARY, this quote...

"That’s what naturally happens in a football team,” added Martínez. Of course, this is a period when you are judging players. When things are going well you don’t want to disrupt anything, you don’t want to lose anything, and when things are going against you, you need to find solutions.

“Even more so in our dressing room because the expectations were very different to where we are now.”

My vision is to create a team that can become a winning team. Losing games forces you to try and find solutions and to look inside in a different way than when you win.

Injuries have been a constant disruption, especially in terms of having a settled defence, and Martínez wants a new, long-term goalkeeper from the January window after Tim Howard was ruled out until mid-February with a calf problem. “There are certain positions where you need continuity and consistency because of the players’ understanding,” said Martínez, who may consider a move for Ali al-Habsi at Wigan Athletic. “The centre-halves and goalkeeper is one such unit and we have had too many changes in there.”

I'm not being overly picky nor trying to lampoon him either. It's just that, y'know, it's the same disco a year on innit.

I´m not spotting what he is saying there that makes it seem he is saying the same this year or has failed to fix something he was looking at last year?

 

[davek]

you can say 'entertainers' all you like, and post all the lovely goals we've scored.

But we've won six games. got 11 draws, and we're half way through the season, we haven't won at home in the prem for ages, we haven't won two successive premier league matches since last year, something is seriously wrong.

this squad is capable of much more.

Inconsistent results in the league and consistent results in the cups (and consistently good performances, all told) does not constitute 'something is seriously wrong'.

Not scoring, conceding heavily, being out of every competition at this stage and hovering above the relegation zone constitutes 'something is seriously wrong'.

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

I´m not spotting what he is saying there that makes it seem he is saying the same this year or has failed to fix something he was looking at last year?

It's been suggested that he needs to address the GK situation, yes? He was looking to do that 1 year ago. Apols, I shudda just posted the link, the quotes read kinda vague.

My point being if it was an issue then and remains so now, why?

 

[AaronTheBlue]

Inconsistent results in the league and consistent results in the cups (and consistently good performances, all told) does not constitute 'something is seriously wrong'.

Not scoring, conceding heavily, being out of every competition at this stage and hovering above the relegation zone constitutes 'something is seriously wrong'.

Yes there is something seriously wrong.

You can waffle on all you want and wrap it up in gold paper but why have we only won 6 games why have we had 11 draws why have we never won two consecutive games in the premier and why are we conceding so much?

As much as you like to try blame everyone BUT the manager a lot of the fault lies with him.

By the way I'm still routing for him to turn it around and I hope we go off on a 6 game win streak but it's hard to see that coming right now

 

[Lanolin]

I wouldn´t mind all the mentioning of Moyes so much, as its valid to compare new boss with ex boss, but the comments rarely take all into account and only show whatever bias the poster wants to show.

For me Moyes initial achievements were excellent. However, taking a group of professional footballers and drilling them to be a solid deep lying unit that clears the lines a lot should be generally easier to do than get a team to implement an open passing style. It also asks for less technical ability of the players involved, helping to even out somewhat the imbalance between one team vs another even if the oppo has better players.

This does not talk down what Moyes did, nor excuse how we are doing right now but its still a valid point IMO and as I´m a bit tired of saying, things are not as black and white as most posters like to make it out to be.

I think it all depends on what the end result is.

I'd had enough of Moyes, and wanted him gone by the end of his time here. I have to say though, that we played some excellent stuff after those initial years of graft and the transition to the style of play Martinez wants shouldn't have been too difficult. He wasn't being asked to turn Steve Watson and Lee Carsley into Brazil 1970, he inherited a side with players like Stones, Barkley, Mirallas, Osman, Pienaar and Baines who are all well capable of playing the type of football he wants and was given plenty of money to bring in others to supplement it.

I think if the last 18 months turns out to be the start of a great journey and we win a cup this year, finish 6th next year and 4th the year after and stay in that bracket then Martinez will have done a terrific job and will be proved right in his outlook. If we carry on as we are, however, or just swap finishing 6th and 7th with crosses into the box and dogged defending for finishing 6th and 7th with pretty football, it'll all be a bit of a letdown.

 

[davek]

Yes there is something seriously wrong.

You can waffle on all you want and wrap it up in gold paper but why have we only won 6 games why have we had 11 draws why have we never won two consecutive games in the premier and why are we conceding so much?

As much as you like to try blame everyone BUT the manager a lot of the fault lies with him.

By the way I'm still routing for him to turn it around and I hope we go off on a 6 game win streak but it's hard to see that coming right now

If you're saying there's an alarming disconnect between goals scored/good performances and results, then yes. I'd agree with that.

But "seriously wrong" means (to me anyway) that something is structurally unsound and needs rescuing. That's not us.

Replace that GK we have with any decent PL GK (or with Robles for that matter) and we're 5/6 points easy better off in the table.

That's not a situation that's seriously wrong; it's a situation that's easily remedied.

 

[AaronTheBlue]

If you're saying there's an alarming disconnect between goals scored/good performances and results, then yes. I'd agree with that.

But "seriously wrong" means (to me anyway) that something is structurally unsound and needs rescuing. That's not us.

Replace that GK we have with any decent PL GK (or with Robles for that matter) and we're 5/6 points easy better off in the table.

That's not a situation that's seriously wrong; it's a situation that's easily remedied.

But there is something structurally unsound with how he manages his side defensively, and his refusal to drop a goalkeeper due to personal affection.

 

[hallamblue]

If you're saying there's an alarming disconnect between goals scored/good performances and results, then yes. I'd agree with that.

But "seriously wrong" means (to me anyway) that something is structurally unsound and needs rescuing. That's not us.

Replace that GK we have with any decent PL GK (or with Robles for that matter) and we're 5/6 points easy better off in the table.

That's not a situation that's seriously wrong; it's a situation that's easily remedied.

The worry is literally everybody in the country can see the remedy except the manager.

 

[davek]

The worry is literally everybody in the country can see the remedy except the manager.

He sees it. I dont think right now he's prepared to deal with it. Which is a fault, obvioulsy. But it's not the same as saying something is seriously out of whack with the team.