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Roberto Martinez discussion

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Allezfan said:
Eh, 5 points doesn't require caving. It just requires us to be better than we have been.
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On current stats it would take us 4 games to claw back 5 points whilst everyone above us would have to lose all. Can't see us finishing any higher than 9th even with a good run.
 
BlueToff said:
Well that's what I hope he can change, mate. And we actually did look to have turned a corner in that respect around November when we hammered Sunderland and Villa - two sides who we laboured against last season at home. Unfortunately, teams like Stoke and Leicester really have improved a lot - and that's down to an increase in money, while Swansea were boosted by the new manager who is obviously very astute defensively - and we still created loads of chances!

The turning point for me was Bournemouth, ironically on the same weekend as last season's turning point vs Spurs away. On both occasions we threw away leads and got a key player injured. McCarthy has been a huge miss for us, and we'd looked so much better when Besic came in as he adds that same energy into the midfield - which is what is key to making Martinez' system work effectively against any side.
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That Sunderland game though, really? They better chances than we did, and Howard made some great stops. We just finished our chances and they didn't theirs. The game was massively open and highlighted everything that was wrong with the Martinez system. Villa were awful to be fair.

Swansea boosted by who? The guy who joined them last week? Is he that good a defensive coach he sorted them out in a few days? We've missed the boat there.

I admire your optimism mate, and I hope for all our sake's, you're right and he turns it around and we go on a run, but I just can't see any evidence that it's going to happen. He tried to tinker with it last season and we looked even worse. This season he's almost just said 'forget it' we'll attack more and see if that works.
 
BlueToff said:
I also think it's worth noting that 'project Martinez' is as much about building for the future as well - form the club's P.O.V.

The players he's bringing in - even though as a team may be underperforming - are clearly being brought in to build something sustainable that a new manager can come in and build on.

It's that Barca model of every player being able to fit a style, which makes replacing players who leave a lot easier.

Tarashaj looks to be a perfect example of a player who can come in and grow into a system of playing the game.

Same with Foulds, with Besic, with Holgate etc.
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There's a key difference between us using that model and Barcelona using it. Barcelona weren't relying on maybe winning a league cup being enough to keep young ambitious players at the club.

Yes we need to build for the future but we also need League progression now or these young players will move on very quickly.
 
bluewally said:
There's a key difference between us using that model and Barcelona using it. Barcelona weren't relying on maybe winning a league cup being enough to keep young ambitious players at the club.

Yes we need to build for the future but we also need League progression now or these young players will move on very quickly.
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We're relying on contracts and huge asked for transfer fees to keep them, lets be honest.

The new tv deal has made us one of the 20 richest clubs in the world, which is absurd, but that means we can go 'ok who can pay you these wages and afford to buy out your contract' 'noone who wants you then you're staying'.

Whether we come 5th or 15th, win two cups or none is irrelevent in whether they stay or go.
 

Allezfan said:
You thought this system wasn't working in his first season here? Really?
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It was peaks a troughs to be fair

It was great against sides like Arsenal but was torrid against sides like West Brom and Cardiff

Part of the success relies on the opposing team chasing for the ball, and a lot of lesser sides seem happy now to just sit back and watch the passing. Swansea did that in the second half on Sunday for instance

That issue has always been there, it just didn't happen so much in the first season because teams hadn't sussed it out yet
 
BlueToff said:
I also think it's worth noting that 'project Martinez' is as much about building for the future as well - form the club's P.O.V.

The players he's bringing in - even though as a team may be underperforming - are clearly being brought in to build something sustainable that a new manager can come in and build on.

It's that Barca model of every player being able to fit a style, which makes replacing players who leave a lot easier.

Tarashaj looks to be a perfect example of a player who can come in and grow into a system of playing the game.

Same with Foulds, with Besic, with Holgate etc.
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This is the issue with sacking him (apart from the fact Bill wouldn't sack Adolf Hitler from his youth development squad), he is doing many good things at the club including broader profile and appeal and great youth set-up. If we were to ditch him we would lose all that.
 
bol-uk said:
This is the issue with sacking him (apart from the fact Bill wouldn't sack Adolf Hitler from his youth development squad), he is doing many good things at the club including broader profile and appeal and great youth set-up. If we were to ditch him we would lose all that.
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Is he really though? He doesn't do any more with the Academy than Moyes did. In terms of bringing in youngsters, Everton have always done this. Just Moyes used to bring in strikers and Martinez brings in defenders. The only one who has come in and done something so far is Galloway.

When Moyes first came he also lowered the age of the squad so he could work with a younger side.

I don't want Moyes before anyone says, but I think people think Martinez is doing all these great things behind the scenes when in truth he's not doing a whole lot more than anyone else has done before him.
 
Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
It was peaks a troughs to be fair

It was great against sides like Arsenal but was torrid against sides like West Brom and Cardiff

Part of the success relies on the opposing team chasing for the ball, and a lot of lesser sides seem happy now to just sit back and watch the passing. Swansea did that in the second half on Sunday for instance

That issue has always been there, it just didn't happen so much in the first season because teams hadn't sussed it out yet
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Cardiff was when Coleman scored the last mintue winner, right? I was at that one, we played well.
 

bol-uk said:
This is the issue with sacking him (apart from the fact Bill wouldn't sack Adolf Hitler from his youth development squad), he is doing many good things at the club including broader profile and appeal and great youth set-up. If we were to ditch him we would lose all that.
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I would keep him if he could just change his attitude. This is going to be his downfall.
Attacking wise he can't be faulted as can be seen. The problem is though that he has surrounded himself with attacking minded people from Dunc to Graham Jones. He needs help here and I can't see any of these contributing defense wise. I'd get rid of Jones and replace him with a Stubbs/Weir/Keown type of person.
 
Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
The away game I meant

A tepid 0-0
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That and west brom at home was his 2nd and 3rd game in charge. We didn't really get going until we'd beaten chelsea and people started to believe in him.

I mean I'm not a fanatical martinez supporter, but we played really well that first season. I mean, regardless of anything else, we had an incredible defensive record and amazing home form so I feel like the idea that the flaws of this season were apparrant then is a little silly.
 
Carlito said:
lol at the idea that players are only here for Martinez. So he's a bigger name in football than Everton is he?

Lukaku is here because Everton were prepared to pay Chelsea's asking price and match his wage demands.
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That's not the only point though. Yes Everton paid the price, wage demands and so on, but only because Martinez wanted him AND the fact they'd built a dcent relationship during the loan.

If you think Moyes would have gone for Lukaku i'd have to disagree.
 

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