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Roberto Martinez discussion

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BlueToff said:
I'm not bringing the board into it mate as clearly, unless we maintain a CL place, then the best players will leave.

It's the idea that we are building something - not with money - but by putting in place a style of play and players will develop into that style. Look at Dowell and Ledson as upcoming examples, Kenny also.
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No it's the idea that martinez was bought in as part of a plan to change the club.

I don't buy that. I think it's clear that our managers have complete control over the football side of the club. We wanted martinez because he was available and cheap and we liked him and martinez did the rest.

I don't think it was about building for the future or setting up a model for future managers to slot in at all, from the boards pov. I think if you expect us to replace martinez with someone else who will continue in the same work, you'll be disapointed, I don't believe the club has a long term plan like that.
 
BlueToff said:
I'm not bringing the board into it mate as clearly, unless we maintain a CL place, then the best players will leave.

It's the idea that we are building something - not with money - but by putting in place a style of play and players will develop into that style. Look at Dowell and Ledson as upcoming examples, Kenny also.
Click to expand...

I can see what you're saying but they've been at the club far longer than Martinez though. The Academy has always had a play out from the back, and move the ball philosophy which pretty much any decent kids team has, as it's the best way for them to learn.

That is always my argument in terms of the National side, most of the players now have been educated in technical ability, yet we have a manager who is from a different era. But that's for another thread.
 
Little Ralphy said:
That's not what we were discussing to be fair. I guess this is what happens on a forum but he was talking about youth set up. I was referring to players that are bought as part of that. No one mentioned the first team other than me saying both managers lowered the average age of the side. In fairness our current side isn't all that young either.

What about Rooney anyway?

You've also mentioned there Moyes using Academy players vs Martinez using players he bought. Moyes did buy youngsters, just mostly strikers and most didn't work out. I remember Alan Irvine telling me once that Moyes would ideally have about 10 strikers to choose from, which I found amazing considering he never knew how to use them.
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well then i have waded into the wrong discussion then , i apologise :)
 
Allezfan said:
No it's the idea that martinez was bought in as part of a plan to change the club.

I don't buy that. I think it's clear that our managers have complete control over the football side of the club. We wanted martinez because he was available and cheap and we liked him and martinez did the rest.

I don't think it was about building for the future or setting up a model for future managers to slot in at all, from the boards pov. I think if you expect us to replace martinez with someone else who will continue in the same work, you'll be disapointed, I don't believe the club has a long term plan like that.
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No I don't think Martinez was brought into to do that at all mate. I think he, himself, is wanting to build that though.
 

I agree Roberto has an eye for a player. He's charming and works well with the media. If we ever went down the director of football route I think he'd be great in that role. His failings are on the pitch not off it.
 
bluewally said:
There's no evidence that the style of play we are putting in place is effective. Wigan were rampant at times too.

I agree we need to think differently to compete and build something but I'm not sure we hired the right builder.
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Sorry then... I should re-phrase... a style of player.

As in a player who can fit into a system - whether Bobbie's or a variation thereof by another manager further down the line - and be suited to it.

It's the Barca/Pep way of thinking - and it's how to build for the long term even if you yourself (as manager) are only there for a 3/4 year stint.

While I'm in no way comparing Everton to Barca in terms of any success or even style of play, I think the similarity in what Martinez is trying to build is clearly there. Every player he brings in, or the academy are developing, are playing in a similar style.

The immediate criticism is that it isn't working. Well that's not true, as it would have worked on a lot more occasions over the course of the last 18 months if not for individual errors, bad luck or a drop in form by the first team.
 
Little Ralphy said:
I can see what you're saying but they've been at the club far longer than Martinez though. The Academy has always had a play out from the back, and move the ball philosophy which pretty much any decent kids team has, as it's the best way for them to learn.

That is always my argument in terms of the National side, most of the players now have been educated in technical ability, yet we have a manager who is from a different era. But that's for another thread.
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Well I think RM is attempting to build on that tradition, and I think 5 years down the line (whether he is here or not) we'll be better off for it.
 
Not sure where the best place for this post is, as I think it could fit - here, Takeover, or Transfer as they are all intertwined. Additionally this is not to absolve RM for what most of us feel are some glaring mistakes. But I do wonder if the uncertainty of the BK's Health and the ownership of the team is having an impact on a couple of fronts. Forgive me if I ramble.

Transfer Activity:
- Are we bound at the moment from completing any big deals as the Chairman is unable to approve a move because of illness/pending sale.
- This includes outgoing players because there is uncertainty about approval for budgets, player acquisitions etc. for replacements. I know Naismith would seem to negate this but, it could be something that there was approval of Naismith outgoing covering incoming of Foulds, Byram, and the young Grasshopper player - and agreement was reached on them months ago?

Howard:
- Is there something contractual that keeps him in the team? RM has not been glowing of him at all - I think he has been measured when discussing. Even with the cock-up v Swansea - he seemed to say it was a combined fault - Didn't blame Stones. He knows he isn't playing great he has said as much.
- Does a potential sale to American consortium influence the selection of him at least until the deal is complete. A marketing carrot for the potential buyers (I hope not - because that would not bode well)

Ownership Change:
- RM does not seem to make any references to "the Chairman" anymore. Something is obviously off there but everyone seems to be trying to be respectful
- News about the "Goodbye Letter" does not sound good.
- Could everything be in a "hold" state as there are squabbles at the top as perhaps Bill can't make decisions and there is disputes as to can give final say.
- Can this uncertainty be spilling into the players - Not using it an an excuse - but I have been affected in my work by not knowing who my boss is going to be.
- Could the team have come out flat because they too were informed on Sunday of a "Goodbye" letter from the chairman and they cant talk out of respect.

I know this is all conjecture - But there does seem to be a lot of uncertainty with the club situation and a lot of rumors about health/sale. It just seems that there is a lot of details behind the scenes that we do not have information on and could be a contributing factor to our performance on the field. Some fault with RM, Some fault with Players, some fault with the situation with ownership. It generally is never a black and white issue.
 
Martinez needs to sort out the players mentally quickly. Wins will get the fans back on side. But if he keeps playing Howard then he will be looking for a new job because Howard won't become good overnight, he finished
 

In work today, spoke to 3 Everton fans who believe Martinez should go now they all fans oh him but they are not happy with the results and believe he should be winning more games. Someone in work said 15 wins in the last 50 games in the premiership
 
BlueToff said:
Sorry then... I should re-phrase... a style of player.

As in a player who can fit into a system - whether Bobbie's or a variation thereof by another manager further down the line - and be suited to it.

It's the Barca/Pep way of thinking - and it's how to build for the long term even if you yourself (as manager) are only there for a 3/4 year stint.

While I'm in no way comparing Everton to Barca in terms of any success or even style of play, I think the similarity in what Martinez is trying to build is clearly there. Every player he brings in, or the academy are developing, are playing in a similar style.

The immediate criticism is that it isn't working. Well that's not true, as it would have worked on a lot more occasions over the course of the last 18 months if not for individual errors, bad luck or a drop in form by the first team.
Click to expand...

Problem is there is no proof whatsoever that this style of football will work in the PL. Martinez has been trying it for 6 years now with limited success. Klopp has had to have a quick rethink and I think Pep is in for the shock of his life when he gets here.
My opinion is that it will never work as the game is too quick here, tempo of the game is just too high.
 
Jags..class said:
In work today, spoke to 3 Everton fans who believe Martinez should go now they all fans oh him but they are not happy with the results and believe he should be winning more games. Someone in work said 15 wins in the last 50 games in the premiership
Click to expand...

18 wins out of 61 since summer 2014.
 
BlueToff said:
Sorry then... I should re-phrase... a style of player.

As in a player who can fit into a system - whether Bobbie's or a variation thereof by another manager further down the line - and be suited to it.

It's the Barca/Pep way of thinking - and it's how to build for the long term even if you yourself (as manager) are only there for a 3/4 year stint.

While I'm in no way comparing Everton to Barca in terms of any success or even style of play, I think the similarity in what Martinez is trying to build is clearly there. Every player he brings in, or the academy are developing, are playing in a similar style.

The immediate criticism is that it isn't working. Well that's not true, as it would have worked on a lot more occasions over the course of the last 18 months if not for individual errors, bad luck or a drop in form by the first team.
Click to expand...

Sorry just don't agree. There has been no noticeable change in the youth teams under Martinez.

The "Everton Way" predates Martinez by about a decade. It was all part of the Finch Farm project when Moyes wanted everyone in one location. The likes of Dowell were regularly training alongside the first team when they were about 14.

I often read people crediting Martinez for the U18 sides excellent performances but those players have been with Everton since 7. He speaks more openly about it but the structure was put in place well before him by the likes of Ray Hall, Tosh Farrell etc
 

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