Roberto Martinez discussion

[Saint Domingo]

They're frustrated that the football is not getting the result it deserves, not because they dont agree with everyone in the country that we play great attacking football. You're not seriously suggesting that we dont are you? You're in a small minority if you are.

I'm suggesting we're playing unbalanced football that doesn't yield results. Sometimes it's completely gung ho, the other end of the spectrum to Pulis if you like. Players pouring forward without abandon. Works wonders against the dross of the league but most decent sides countered it quite easily. When we've tried to tighten up our attack has struggled to do anything other than play on the counter away from home.

Two and a half seasons in and we can't put out a consistent balanced way of playing. When you turn up at Goodison now it could be any score, some of the worst sides have won without much problem. That's no way to build a league campaign. This lack of balance is the reason we have stayed in and around the bottom half for 18 months.

 

[The Equaliser]

Nice chap is our Roberto.

Too nice, that's half the problem. He needs to get mean. And I mean goddamn dog-gone mean.

 

[davek]

I'm suggesting we're playing unbalanced football that doesn't yield results. Sometimes it's completely gung ho, the other end of the spectrum to Pulis if you like. Players pouring forward without abandon. Works wonders against the dross of the league but most decent sides countered it quite easily. When we've tried to tighten up our attack has struggled to do anything other than play on the counter away from home.

Two and a half seasons in and we can't put out a consistent balanced way of playing. When you turn up at Goodison now it could be any score, some of the worst sides have won without much problem. That's no way to build a league campaign. This lack of balance is the reason we have stayed in and around the bottom half for 18 months.

We haven't "been in and around the bottom half for 18 months". It might be a nice dramatic tag line for you, but it's factually incorrect.

 

[davek]

I'd like to know, with some detail, what he is getting wrong? I'd be the first to admit I'm not an expert on the intricacies of football tactics. However we play fantastic football and man by man our team is brilliant, it's difficult for an ignoramus like me to understand why we don't win more games.
I think Roberto deserves another season. He has assembled a great squad. What do his critics say he should do differently?

Quite simply: a bandwagon about this manager was successfully put into motion; if it ever had any credibility it long ago ran off the tracks and is careering presently into a brick walk at a rate of knots.

It's a mindless rage that's had as it's 'engine' the poor defensive record of the team this season....but with 8 goals conceded in the last 12 games even that's a nonsensical critique now.

 

[Saint Domingo]

We haven't "been in and around the bottom half for 18 months". It might be a nice dramatic tag line for you, but it's factually incorrect.

Ah the old tactic of arguing over semantics. Finished 11th last season, 11th now. The league performance has been an embarrassment and nowhere near good enough. Any comment on our manager's inability to find a balance in the side given other manager's in the league have managed it in less time?

 

[banno]

I'd like to know, with some detail, what he is getting wrong? I'd be the first to admit I'm not an expert on the intricacies of football tactics. However we play fantastic football and man by man our team is brilliant, it's difficult for an ignoramus like me to understand why we don't win more games.
I think Roberto deserves another season. He has assembled a great squad. What do his critics say he should do differently?

At the moment RM has us being very good on the ball (as good as we have been since the mid eighties) but equally bad off the ball (on par with the 90's). The latter is starting to improve slightly but not quite there just yet. RM is a very good young manager who is still learning and gaining experience and is adamant that we continue with a footballing approach rather than a get it to the front from the back asap as in the big dunc days. As fantastic as our football is at times the results are not on par. All the work that is needed now is to work better and harder off the ball and don't give the opposition the time to pick passes or build up play as we afford them now. We also have a glut of youth in the team whom still have errors in them (although they are our better players)but that will lessen with experience. Well that's my take on it.

 

[BlueToff]

See, in your disturbed rage you are lashing out, blinded to the failures of the fraud incumbent boss.

New owners and I'm afraid he will be in a unique moment of P45 acceptance.

Ian's not only right, but fair, balanced and even. He's pulled you apart here this evening.

I haven't even been online bar to post that mate, and I haven't responded to Ian's points due to that.

I was simply pointing out that 'the plotters' chose to accept the facts that suit their argument, but yet points that say we've improved since the turn of the year (which me and Davek and 'the cult' have been constantly saying), it's completely ignored by some (not all).

I'm more than willing to have reasonable discussion.

And I don't think new owners will mean anything either way, tbh.

Martinez has us playing very decent football and has built a promising, quality young squad that enjoy playing under him.

We're not far away and most people can see that.

Has this been frustrating so far? Yes, very much so. But we're in a good position in the cup and our recent performances in league and cup have shown us to be more solid and still have an attacking edge (albeit we have been wasteful in games vs WBA and Swansea). With a third of the season left then that to me, signals improvement and promise.

EDIT: I also want to add that taking the above into account, this squad could and should be doing better given how we have played.

'We're not far away' only cuts so much slack and I agree with that view point. However, I don't think it is entirely down to the manager and so I believe he's the right man for the job as the good things he has done outway the negatives.

 

[davek]

Ah the old tactic of arguing over semantics. Finished 11th last season, 11th now. The league performance has been an embarrassment and nowhere near good enough. Any comment on our manager's inability to find a balance in the side given other manager's in the league have managed it in less time?

...so not in the bottom half for 18 months then.

 

[BlueToff]

Ah the old tactic of arguing over semantics. Finished 11th last season, 11th now. The league performance has been an embarrassment and nowhere near good enough. Any comment on our manager's inability to find a balance in the side given other manager's in the league have managed it in less time?

You were slating the club for 'not having ambition like Stoke and Newcastle' when we only signed one player (our third most expensive signing ever) in January mate...

Why are you so arsed about comparing us to other clubs? I think one of the main reasons Everton are so well respected as a club is they usually make reasoned, sensible decisions and don't rush into things, and go about our business in the right way while the squad always tries to be the best it can be.

 

[Saint Domingo]

At the moment RM has us being very good on the ball (as good as we have been since the mid eighties) but equally bad off the ball (on par with the 90's). The latter is starting to improve slightly but not quite there just yet. RM is a very good young manager who is still learning and gaining experience and is adamant that we continue with a footballing approach rather than a get it to the front from the back asap as in the big dunc days. As fantastic as our football is at times the results are not on par. All the work that is needed now is to work better and harder off the ball and don't give the opposition the time to pick passes or build up play as we afford them now. We also have a glut of youth in the team whom still have errors in them (although they are our better players)but that will lessen with experience. Well that's my take on it.

Your first point. By what metric are we 'good on the ball'? For a long time we've collectively bemoaned the lack of touch that Naismith Lukaku have, McCarthy's non existent forward passing range, Coleman and Jagielka being awkward in the system. So I don't see this at all. I see a team that when they are tasked with breaking a side down serve up some boring slow turgid safety first unpenetrative football. The league table backs this up, our home record is abysmal. When we really let loose, it is when we are playing on the counter attack in the same style that Leicester do, Palace a few seasons back. That's not being great on the ball, it's having Barkley Lukaku and Lennon to call on. There is also a huge amount of long balls every game punted aimlessly at Lukaku.

Martinez's plan A has been shown up. It doesn't work plain and simple. More and more he is moving us towards being a counterattacking team in order to get results. One poster was even praising the home performance v Newcastle saying how clever Roberto was allowing them to have the ball. Just let that sink in, against one of the worst sides in the prem we set out at home to play on the counterattack. When you give a good team the ball like this, more often than not, they punish you which is what happened v City, United at home, Arsenal away, and last season such as the Kiev away game.

You've talked about not 'getting it from front to back quickly' as though that's a bad thing. Our away record is good because we play on the break and move from back to front quickly. The slow build up at home has got us nowhere, Martinez had so far refused to buy the players to make this work.

The football is not brilliant. That is why we are 11th with the worst home defensive record in Europe's top 5 leagues. After 2 and a half seasons we have developed a good counterattacking team. That is it.

 

[Saint Domingo]

You were slating the club for 'not having ambition like Stoke and Newcastle' when we only signed one player (our third most expensive signing ever) in January mate...

Why are you so arsed about comparing us to other clubs? I think one of the main reasons Everton are so well respected as a club is they usually make reasoned, sensible decisions and don't rush into things, and go about our business in the right way while the squad always tries to be the best it can be.

What has all of what you've written got to do with the point I made? That comment (which you've deliberately misconstrued) is to do with the board so does not belong in here). As for comparisons to other teams and managers, we play in a competition with 19 other teams that we should want to do well in. We are not a test tube in isolation for long term football 'projects'.

Has Roberto created a balanced side? For me the evidence on the pitch reflected in the league table suggests not. Why has he not managed this yet?

 

[Saint Domingo]

...so not in the bottom half for 18 months then.

Big slaps on the back for el Bob for occasionally letting us sniff the top half for a couple of weeks now and then. Care to address the point at hand and stop deflecting down pedantic avenues? Do you think this is a balanced side?

 

[Gosmond]

In my opinion, Roberto is going exactly the right way. He's changed the mentality of the squad (back to the school of science), he's cultivated young players brilliantly, giving them so much more game time than most managers would dare; he's bought extremely well in the most part (eg Lukaku, Besic, Funes, Lennon, Delefeou); he's proven to be a big draw to great talent (Lukaku and Delefeou): all of this plus he's nothing but courteous and friendly to us fans, treating us with the upmost respect.

His 2 league finishes have been excellent / average, but I'm far more bothered about the shape of the team for the future, which I think is brilliant. Howard Kendall finished seventh and eighth in his first two seasons, had fans calling for him to be sacked, and then...

 

[The Equaliser]

Martinez's plan A has been shown up. It doesn't work plain and simple. More and more he is moving us towards being a counterattacking team in order to get results.

Nail on head.

 

[Saint Domingo]

In my opinion, Roberto is going exactly the right way. He's changed the mentality of the squad (back to the school of science), he's cultivated young players brilliantly, giving them so much more game time than most managers would dare; he's bought extremely well in the most part (eg Lukaku, Besic, Funes, Lennon, Delefeou); he's proven to be a big draw to great talent (Lukaku and Delefeou): all of this plus he's nothing but courteous and friendly to us fans, treating us with the upmost respect.

His 2 league finishes have been excellent / average, but I'm far more bothered about the shape of the team for the future, which I think is brilliant. Howard Kendall finished seventh and eighth in his first two seasons, had fans calling for him to be sacked, and then...

Please give one piece of tangible evidence which supports this.