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Roberto Martinez discussion

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Saint Domingo said:
Please give one piece of tangible evidence which supports this.
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Well under Moyes the best bits of footy we got were Jagielkas aimed punts towards Fellainis chest, followed by some decent stuff by Pinner and Baines as they tried to find a way to deliver a cross back to Fellaini.

Under Martinez, we play a variety of intricate attacking movements, from swift counter attacks to Arsenal style short passing around the box. Everybody, from the goalie forward, is encouraged to play it to feet and make the opposition work harder to get the ball back. I I don't know how to provide you with tangible evidence, just what I, plus many others can see week in, week out.
 
Saint Domingo said:
What has all of what you've written got to do with the point I made? That comment (which you've deliberately misconstrued) is to do with the board so does not belong in here). As for comparisons to other teams and managers, we play in a competition with 19 other teams that we should want to do well in. We are not a test tube in isolation for long term football 'projects'.

Has Roberto created a balanced side? For me the evidence on the pitch reflected in the league table suggests not. Why has he not managed this yet?
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Granted on the first point.

To me it sounded like you were comparing Martinez to having had longer than other managers at other teams?

My point was that I'd rather he be given time to get it right as the signs are to me he is improving us in an ever-evolving and improving league.

We play great football at times and now almost totally moved away from the drab sideways passing that we grew into in our second season.

He has looked to change things up defensively since the turn of the year and the stats support that yet still the argument is that 'he can't change'.

He's learning as the team are and both the manager and the players have to take the responsibility of us not being higher up than we are.

That been said we're 5 points off 6th place and have won four of our last five in all comps, with 12 league games left and a quarter final in the FA Cup coming up.

Why the huge rush? I understand the frustration and the worry that this team will get decimated and five years ago I would have shared your concern.

Now, it is perfectly reasonable to expect it not to be. The huge influx of TV cash has greatly levelled out the playing field and ensured that if we did have to sell one of our stars it would only be the one and we would get a very handsome fee for him.
 
Gosmond said:
In my opinion, Roberto is going exactly the right way. He's changed the mentality of the squad (back to the school of science), he's cultivated young players brilliantly, giving them so much more game time than most managers would dare; he's bought extremely well in the most part (eg Lukaku, Besic, Funes, Lennon, Delefeou); he's proven to be a big draw to great talent (Lukaku and Delefeou): all of this plus he's nothing but courteous and friendly to us fans, treating us with the upmost respect.

His 2 league finishes have been excellent / average, but I'm far more bothered about the shape of the team for the future, which I think is brilliant. Howard Kendall finished seventh and eighth in his first two seasons, had fans calling for him to be sacked, and then...
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Spot on mate.
 

Gosmond said:
Well under Moyes the best bits of footy we got were Jagielkas aimed punts towards Fellainis chest, followed by some decent stuff by Pinner and Baines as they tried to find a way to deliver a cross back to Fellaini.

Under Martinez, we play a variety of intricate attacking movements, from swift counter attacks to Arsenal style short passing around the box. Everybody, from the goalie forward, is encouraged to play it to feet and make the opposition work harder to get the ball back. I I don't know how to provide you with tangible evidence, just what I, plus many others can see week in, week out.
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Don't see what that (subjective as it is) has to do with proving that Martinez has brought in a school of science mentality.

We do play a variety of ways under Martinez. We play a large number of long balls to Lukaku (conveniently ignored by many), we play counterattack often even at home, and we play short passing (the type of which I would not compare to Arsenal). This blend of football has led to very poor results for the past 18 months. Where in this is there an indicator that we are returning to a school of science mentality? An increase in the number of passes per match? Without the results to go with them what do they accomplish?
 
Gosmond said:
Under Martinez, we play a variety of intricate attacking movements, from swift counter attacks to Arsenal style short passing around the box. Everybody, from the goalie forward, is encouraged to play it to feet and make the opposition work harder to get the ball back. I I don't know how to provide you with tangible evidence, just what I, plus many others can see week in, week out.
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Like when in stoppage time against Bournemouth we decided to pass it around in our own half instead of getting it forward thereby conceding possession which gifted them an equaliser which resulted in 2 dropped points ?

Yeah, great football that.
 
Saint Domingo said:
Don't see what that (subjective as it is) has to do with proving that Martinez has brought in a school of science mentality.

We do play a variety of ways under Martinez. We play a large number of long balls to Lukaku (conveniently ignored by many), we play counterattack often even at home, and we play short passing (the type of which I would not compare to Arsenal). This blend of football has led to very poor results for the past 18 months. Where in this is there an indicator that we are returning to a school of science mentality? An increase in the number of passes per match? Without the results to go with them what do they accomplish?
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I used the Moyes example to offer a contrast to what we have now. In however many years that Moyes had, that was the height of our footballing sophistication. Our left flank hoping for a knockdown from our 6ft 5 enforcer.

Roberto instantly instilled a freedom amongst the team to express themselves, and the quality of our play is admited by almost all neutrals and pundits that i have encountered. Yes, the results may not be as good as you would like yet (I think they're decent), but I believe that if the board give him time (which they will 'cos we're Everton, not some quick win or you're out club), then we'll reap the benefits.
 
Saint Domingo said:
Ah the old tactic of arguing over semantics. Finished 11th last season, 11th now. The league performance has been an embarrassment and nowhere near good enough. Any comment on our manager's inability to find a balance in the side given other manager's in the league have managed it in less time?
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Ah I see your mistake. You worded it as if we were in the bottom half for the whole 18 months.

What you should have said was for 38 rounds of games last season we spent 26 of them in the bottom half. This season has been much better where by we have only spent 7 rounds out of 26 in the bottom half. Oddly enough though all 7 of them have been since Christmas when we have supposedly been doing so much better. I'm still scratching my head on that one.
 

Saint Domingo said:
Is the large number of class goals we concede an indicator of the school of science reopening?
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Every team has areas that they need to work on, and defence is ours. And the evidence of the last month or so suggests that Roberto and the team are getting to grips with that nicely. The second leg against City may prove to be a watershed moment.
 
We are getting criticized in the media (by the likes of Merson, etc) and by fans on here and at Goodison because of rising expectations. Martinez has bought extremely well and many of Moyes'/the academy's acquisitions are also coming into their own. We've got a great squad. Martinez has also focused on us playing possession and "score from open play" football. This reinforces a sense that this team has great talent and can score lots of goals. So folks think we should be pushing for CL spots and when we aren't doing that and conceding soft goals, etc, people naturally blame the manager. But it is the manager that has assembled that squad and has the team playing free-scoring football. I don't think a Moyes team was ever expected to be getting into the top 4, was it?
 
LAToffee said:
We are getting criticized in the media (by the likes of Merson, etc) and by fans on here and at Goodison because of rising expectations. Martinez has bought extremely well and many of Moyes'/the academy's acquisitions are also coming into their own. We've got a great squad. Martinez has also focused on us playing possession and "score from open play" football. This reinforces a sense that this team has great talent and can score lots of goals. So folks think we should be pushing for CL spots and when we aren't doing that and conceding soft goals, etc, people naturally blame the manager. But it is the manager that has assembled that squad and has the team playing free-scoring football. I don't think a Moyes team was ever expected to be getting into the top 4, was it?
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I believe it was Martinez who said he would get us to the champions league but we're further away than ever. He has lowered expectations so much that we sit in 11th and some think that's not a bad season
 

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