Roberto Martinez discussion

[maccavennie]

My jaw has just hit the floor, ran off, and is now doing the Macarena on Bold Street

I can vouch for this, Mikes jaw really is dancing up Bold Street right by the Subway.

 

[maccavennie]

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Next season would be a season when it's his team and he's had the chance to make things as he wants them to be. Then it seems reasonable to judge.
Of course what counts as success, what counts as failure and what counts as par will probably never be known....(ok, so success has some pretty clear guidelines...silver things and Euro gold. But is repeated par a failure or just par?)

I think par is a failure if the par has been moved to something lower MB ( such as 10th/11th classed as par ) I think we've underachieved last season and we have so far this season and I don't think anyone can say otherwise regarding league form.

Where he and the team can redeem themselves is by winning a trophy. That would be a success because it's something we haven't done for far too long.

Par for me is finishing 5th/6th with a good cup run. Anything below that is under achieving imo.

Seasons not over though so I'm still hopeful of winning the next 12 league games and winning the FA Cup

 

[degsy]

You're a model and inspiration for us all.

join chico on the fence, both of you

 

[bluewally]

Genuine question then but what is your idea of a complete manager?

I can't think of many managers, even the best ones, who don't make mistakes every now and then...

Everton as a club aren't in a position where we are going to have the 'best' manager in the league. Ultimately Martinez is a good fit for us and we a good fit for him.

As @LAToffee rightly pointed out, pro Martinez supporters do recognise that he has made mistakes and we're under performing. I'm sure he and the squad do as well.

But the fact remains that he isn't getting sacked anytime soom and this squad of players clearly enjoy playing for him. We've played some great stuff going forward this season so it's not like we haven't changed since some of the sideways dross that was served up last term.

It seems to me that some people are just not willing accept that and brush it off as 'the cult' making excuses.

We're not, we're just simply pointing out that there are other issues at hand and that it isn't all just down to the manager.

It's also in no way an invalid point to mention that there's still three months of this season left to play in the league, plus we've had two good cup runs (the second of which we are still in, obviously.)

Do I accept that things need to improve? Yes.

Do I accept Martinez has made mistakes? Yes.

Do I think he is entirely to blame for the position that we're in, or to be honest even mostly to blame? No, not at all.

You've highlighted 2 words of my post and asked a question I more or less answered in the post.
As I said from his Wigan days through to now his teams have a defensive fragility which he seems unable to resolve.My idea of a complete manager would be a manager who knows how to balance attack and defence.

Of course getting the best manager in the league is improbable how about just a good manager? Just saying that Martinez is a good fit for us doesn't make it so. He's a good fit for a team happy with mid table obscurity. Is that your Everton? It's not mine

We've played some great stuff? Yes of course we play attacking football when the manager doesn't see the need to defend. I've seen plenty of the sideways dross this season too.

Yes there are 3 months to play in the league but you don't know any more than me which way that will go so stop treating it as a defence.

League cup yes we got to the semi. Beating Barnsley, Reading, Norwich on pens and Middlesborough on the way. Hardly a glittering line up.

FA cup we beat Dag & Red, Carlisle, Bournemouth B. Lets see how we go when we play a proper team before we call it a good cup run.

Do I think Martinez can improve? No

Do I accept Martinez has constantly repeated the same mistakes? Yes

Do I think the buck stops with him? Yes

 

[SpurtingLesbian]

join chico on the fence, both of you

 

[degsy]

not a problem for me

 

[willo30]

Genuine question then but what is your idea of a complete manager?

I can't think of many managers, even the best ones, who don't make mistakes every now and then...

Everton as a club aren't in a position where we are going to have the 'best' manager in the league. Ultimately Martinez is a good fit for us and we a good fit for him.

As @LAToffee rightly pointed out, pro Martinez supporters do recognise that he has made mistakes and we're under performing. I'm sure he and the squad do as well.

But the fact remains that he isn't getting sacked anytime soom and this squad of players clearly enjoy playing for him. We've played some great stuff going forward this season so it's not like we haven't changed since some of the sideways dross that was served up last term.

It seems to me that some people are just not willing accept that and brush it off as 'the cult' making excuses.

We're not, we're just simply pointing out that there are other issues at hand and that it isn't all just down to the manager.

It's also in no way an invalid point to mention that there's still three months of this season left to play in the league, plus we've had two good cup runs (the second of which we are still in, obviously.)

Do I accept that things need to improve? Yes.

Do I accept Martinez has made mistakes? Yes.

Do I think he is entirely to blame for the position that we're in, or to be honest even mostly to blame? No, not at all.

He's not a complete manager and you are correct in others as there is probably no such thing as a complete manager. What the others do create the complete coaching team. Fergie was always changing his to keep it up to date with how the game was changing. Martinez/Jones have worked together since Swansea and did well there. Dennis Lawrence joined them at Wigan and we know what happened at the end there.
Looking at it you would have to say the Martinez/Jones combination works as has been proven with our attacking style. What doesn't seem to be working is the Martinez/Lawrence combination as has been proven with our defensive style. You could also say that this was also apparent at Wigan.
Now I know nothing of the man and he could be a great person but I think our problem is Dennis Lawrence. For me he hasn't played the game at a high enough level to warrant the defensive coach job at a premier league club. What we need is a been there done it type of person like a Stubbs, Unsworth, Keown type. A bit like Steve Bould at Arsenal. I would even try and get Distin back if he retires.

 

[banno]

I believe it was Martinez who said he would get us to the champions league but we're further away than ever. He has lowered expectations so much that we sit in 11th and some think that's not a bad season

Further away positionally but much closer football wise. Some of the football we play is good enough for top 4 which has never been the case. Consistency and a couple of tweaks and we will be as close as ever. I know we have finished top 8 over the past few years but we never once remotely looked like cracking the top 4.

 

[Saint Domingo]

You've highlighted 2 words of my post and asked a question I more or less answered in the post.
As I said from his Wigan days through to now his teams have a defensive fragility which he seems unable to resolve.My idea of a complete manager would be a manager who knows how to balance attack and defence.

Of course getting the best manager in the league is improbable how about just a good manager? Just saying that Martinez is a good fit for us doesn't make it so. He's a good fit for a team happy with mid table obscurity. Is that your Everton? It's not mine

We've played some great stuff? Yes of course we play attacking football when the manager doesn't see the need to defend. I've seen plenty of the sideways dross this season too.

Yes there are 3 months to play in the league but you don't know any more than me which way that will go so stop treating it as a defence.

League cup yes we got to the semi. Beating Barnsley, Reading, Norwich on pens and Middlesborough on the way. Hardly a glittering line up.

FA cup we beat Dag & Red, Carlisle, Bournemouth B. Lets see how we go when we play a proper team before we call it a good cup run.

Do I think Martinez can improve? No

Do I accept Martinez has constantly repeated the same mistakes? Yes

Do I think the buck stops with him? Yes

Great post nailing the core issue. Past behaviour is the best indicator of future behaviour. Whether at Wigan or Everton Martinez has had one season of having a decent defence.

This thread is essentially boiling down to those who believe that Martinez is learning and improving, and those who think he's had long enough to do that already, the pace of improvement is too slow for a supposedly good manager, and that mini revivals followed by a reversion to type have been a constant across his tenure so far.

I think Martinez has been given a helping hand by some injuries Howard Stones and Baines have all been replaced. So far though he's resisted the temptation to bring them back in. He needs to keep that up which past behaviour says he won't but perhaps this is one lesson he has finally learnt.

For me a very good manager knows what team to put out to get results. See Guardiola Mourinho Ancelotti as examples. They have a plan in mind, a way of playing, and they implement it to bring fantastic results.

A decent manager doesn't know what team works best but over time finds his way either through trial and error, injuries forcing his hand, new signings coming in etc. Once he has stumbled upon his best 11 and best way of playing though (however he got there) he sticks with it until it is no longer bringing results, then it's back to experimentation again. See Moyes, Rodgers etc. for this.

Poor managers don't know what their best team is or a way of playing that will bring results. They might find it through the same methods as above (trial and error, injuries, new signings) but then once they've found it seem unable to link what they've done differently to the improved results. They'll often therefore cast out the new factor that was bringing them results and revert back to being inconsistent.

Martinez in the first season was the top banding. He had a clear way of playing, he implemented it, it worked. For the last 20 months or so though he's been the bottom banding. Whatever he's doing hasn't worked in the main and he's been unable to realise why. When the answer has been presented to him (Howard injury last season with Robles keeping three clean sheets, our improved form when Lennon plays, improved defence with more conservative full backs, better results playing on the counter), he has been unable to link these factors as reasons for our improved results and has reverted back to type (Howard selected, unbalanced wide players, errant full backs, tippy tappy) and back to poor results.

Until now (maybe). He is at a tipping point where the lights finally seem to have turned on. Howard is out, Oviedo and Funes Mori are in on form, as is Lennon, we are playing more direct. Results in the cup (if not the league, yet) have improved. If he keeps with this formula and results continue to be good in the league as well then for me he will be moving up from the bottom band to the middle one. If we revert back now though to the same factors that have made us underperform for the past 18 months then I will absolutely give up on him ever learning and ever being a decent manager. It really is over to him for the rest of the season. If he can prove himself a decent manager, with his undoubted ability in the transfer market there's no reason he can't bring success to Everton (and be afforded the time to do so). Poor managers don't bring success though. If he shows himself to be this until the end of the season by reverting to an unsuccessful type then we should move him on (even though we probably won't)

 

[bluewally]

Further away positionally but much closer football wise. Some of the football we play is good enough for top 4 which has never been the case. Consistency and a couple of tweaks and we will be as close as ever. I know we have finished top 8 over the past few years but we never once remotely looked like cracking the top 4.

I couldn't agree more. I just don't feel given his record as a manager that he is the man to provide this consistency or solve the defensive issues

 

[orly]

You've highlighted 2 words of my post and asked a question I more or less answered in the post.
As I said from his Wigan days through to now his teams have a defensive fragility which he seems unable to resolve.My idea of a complete manager would be a manager who knows how to balance attack and defence.

Of course getting the best manager in the league is improbable how about just a good manager? Just saying that Martinez is a good fit for us doesn't make it so. He's a good fit for a team happy with mid table obscurity. Is that your Everton? It's not mine

We've played some great stuff? Yes of course we play attacking football when the manager doesn't see the need to defend. I've seen plenty of the sideways dross this season too.

Yes there are 3 months to play in the league but you don't know any more than me which way that will go so stop treating it as a defence.

League cup yes we got to the semi. Beating Barnsley, Reading, Norwich on pens and Middlesborough on the way. Hardly a glittering line up.

FA cup we beat Dag & Red, Carlisle, Bournemouth B. Lets see how we go when we play a proper team before we call it a good cup run.

Do I think Martinez can improve? No

Do I accept Martinez has constantly repeated the same mistakes? Yes

Do I think the buck stops with him? Yes

Was saving this for an @ianefc post but

 

[BlueToff]

You've highlighted 2 words of my post and asked a question I more or less answered in the post.
As I said from his Wigan days through to now his teams have a defensive fragility which he seems unable to resolve.My idea of a complete manager would be a manager who knows how to balance attack and defence.

Of course getting the best manager in the league is improbable how about just a good manager? Just saying that Martinez is a good fit for us doesn't make it so. He's a good fit for a team happy with mid table obscurity. Is that your Everton? It's not mine

We've played some great stuff? Yes of course we play attacking football when the manager doesn't see the need to defend. I've seen plenty of the sideways dross this season too.

Yes there are 3 months to play in the league but you don't know any more than me which way that will go so stop treating it as a defence.

League cup yes we got to the semi. Beating Barnsley, Reading, Norwich on pens and Middlesborough on the way. Hardly a glittering line up.

FA cup we beat Dag & Red, Carlisle, Bournemouth B. Lets see how we go when we play a proper team before we call it a good cup run.

Do I think Martinez can improve? No

Do I accept Martinez has constantly repeated the same mistakes? Yes

Do I think the buck stops with him? Yes

Fair enough that's your opinion. We can agree to disagree on that and it'd be pointless if everyone thought the same way anyway.

The fact does remain though that ultimately he isn't getting sacked anytime soon, whether people think he should be or not.

And it's quite clear that Martinez has ambitions to be more than 'mid-table' mate. And again, I go back to the last seven games just to show an example of how he's obviously looked to get more of a balance back between defence and attack...

Seven conceded. Twelve scored. Three clean sheets.

Not saying it's brilliant, but it's certainly an improvement and shows that your theory of 'he isn't willing to change' is based on something that at the moment at least is being proven to be false...

Again, you seem obsessed with who we have to beat in a cup. You only win a cup with a bit of luck in the draw. Look at Arsenal for the last two years...

 

[BlueToff]

I couldn't agree more. I just don't feel given his record as a manager that he is the man to provide this consistency or solve the defensive issues

His track record with us is 5th in the first season, 11th in his second.

Third season not finished yet.

Wigan and Swansea were totally different entities to us.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

What we need is a been there done it type of person like a Stubbs, Unsworth, Keown type. A bit like Steve Bould at Arsenal. I would even try and get Distin back if he retires.

What is it with these specialist coaches? And why a former club player?

It's a load o' shoite. Jobs for the boys. Howard Kendall never had none of that and the game hasn't changed that dramatically.

A manager should be able to deal with all aspects of coaching. If he can't, and has to delegate, then he's unworthy imo.

 

[BlueToff]

He's not a complete manager and you are correct in others as there is probably no such thing as a complete manager. What the others do create the complete coaching team. Fergie was always changing his to keep it up to date with how the game was changing. Martinez/Jones have worked together since Swansea and did well there. Dennis Lawrence joined them at Wigan and we know what happened at the end there.
Looking at it you would have to say the Martinez/Jones combination works as has been proven with our attacking style. What doesn't seem to be working is the Martinez/Lawrence combination as has been proven with our defensive style. You could also say that this was also apparent at Wigan.
Now I know nothing of the man and he could be a great person but I think our problem is Dennis Lawrence. For me he hasn't played the game at a high enough level to warrant the defensive coach job at a premier league club. What we need is a been there done it type of person like a Stubbs, Unsworth, Keown type. A bit like Steve Bould at Arsenal. I would even try and get Distin back if he retires.

I do think Stubbsy would have been great and he was a help in the first season. But then again, Lawrence oversaw that season so he can't be entirely to blame...