Roberto Martinez discussion

[LAToffee]

I believe it was Martinez who said he would get us to the champions league but we're further away than ever. He has lowered expectations so much that we sit in 11th and some think that's not a bad season

Martinez certainly raised expectations by making that claim and he appeared to make good on them in his first season. Any other season, we get into the CL based on our points tally (highest PL point tally blah blah). From this opening season and in the wake of some very astute purchases, we now have a squad that is universally perceived to be underperforming. Most of us who don't want him fired DO recognize that. All I am saying is that he is to a degree a victim of his own success: he has assembled a squad (through astute buys AND through academy players AND through some Moyes buys that he is brought into the team) and he has instilled a style of play (attacking, skillful, and high-scoring from open play) that suggests the team should be much higher up the table. At the same time, these positives make the VERY REAL limits of his coaching (defense OFF THE BALL) glaringly apparent. The idea that folks would be looking at an Everton squad incredulous that they aren't in the top three is, in part, a credit to Martinez. And yes the fact they aren't in the top three is also his responsibility. How his critics can't acknowledge this, I just don't understand. As I keep saying, the vast majority of "pro" Martinez supporters are perfectly aware of how much we are underperforming. It is the inability of folks to concede that the situation is complicated: that you can have a manager who brings some very valuable things to the table, but has to improve significantly in other areas OR that things are dynamic (there are signs of improvement?). This frustrates me. But, if you are one of those who just want to vent about how crap he is and how he should get fired before he destroys our great club, then go for it.

 

[mkrudden]

I suspect most people recognise that the argument's been done to death and just swerve the thread on favour of less generic topics, but if folk want to keep on going round in circles then who are we to judge mate ?

As mods, we can try to stop other threads descending into general pro/anti Martinez debates, but it's natural that this one will attract strong opinions. The fact those opinions have been voiced many times before is just one of those things.

Not aimed at you, but if anyone's sick to death of this thread and doesn't want to either contribute to it, or read it, then shout out and we'll happily issue an appropriate thread ban.

Genuinely, very good post all round.

Not like me to do so, but perhaps just got a little nouty about the repetition. As you say though, who am I to judge.

Will either contribute or keep schtum

 

[bluewally]

Please explain these conflicting statements my good sir.

The first was a rebuttal of the statement

"Some folks think we should be pushing for CL spots and when we aren't doing that and conceding soft goals, etc, people naturally blame the manage"

The second was the truth as I see it and if you read my post as a whole I think that's quite obvious.

 

[bluewally]

Martinez certainly raised expectations by making that claim and he appeared to make good on them in his first season. Any other season, we get into the CL based on our points tally (highest PL point tally blah blah). From this opening season and in the wake of some very astute purchases, we now have a squad that is universally perceived to be underperforming. Most of us who don't want him fired DO recognize that. All I am saying is that he is to a degree a victim of his own success: he has assembled a squad (through astute buys AND through academy players AND through some Moyes buys that he is brought into the team) and he has instilled a style of play (attacking, skillful, and high-scoring from open play) that suggests the team should be much higher up the table. At the same time, these positives make the VERY REAL limits of his coaching (defense OFF THE BALL) glaringly apparent. The idea that folks would be looking at an Everton squad incredulous that they aren't in the top three is, in part, a credit to Martinez. And yes the fact they aren't in the top three is also his responsibility. How his critics can't acknowledge this, I just don't understand. As I keep saying, the vast majority of "pro" Martinez supporters are perfectly aware of how much we are underperforming. It is the inability of folks to concede that the situation is complicated: that you can have a manager who brings some very valuable things to the table, but has to improve significantly in other areas OR that things are dynamic (there are signs of improvement?). This frustrates me. But, if you are one of those who just want to vent about how crap he is and how he should get fired before he destroys our great club, then go for it.

Ive said several times he has a great eye for a player, is well liked and would make an excellent director of football.

It's on the pitch his problems are. And it's not a new phenomenon. His Wigan teams were entertaining to watch but had the same defensive flaws as we do albeit with lesser players. That's 10 years of not learning. I know many on here see improvement but to me it's minor and until it's sustained and produces results I can't shake the idea that he's not a complete manager.

 

[LAToffee]

Ive said several times he has a great eye for a player, is well liked and would make an excellent director of football.

It's on the pitch his problems are. And it's not a new phenomenon. His Wigan teams were entertaining to watch but had the same defensive flaws as we do albeit with lesser players. That's 10 years of not learning. I know many on here see improvement but to me it's minor and until it's sustained and produces results I can't shake the idea that he's not a complete manager.

That's fair enough. Like you, if the improvement turns out to be minor or unsustained (yet another "turning point" that turns out to be a false dawn), I'll reluctantly accept that he's incapable of winning us cups or making us competitive for CL spots. I didn't see the loss to West Brom as indicative of a return to defensive frailty, but nor do I see our recent form as a clear sign we have turned any kind of corner. We'll know a lot more by the end of the season and frankly he's going nowhere before then anyway.

 

[Boss_Blue]

The second was the truth as I see it and if you read my post as a whole I think that's quite obvious

I would argue that expectations have been raised and that's a big part of the reason why we are seeing the current levels of angst amongst the fans.

The number of people happy with an eleventh placed finish you could count on one hand my friend.

 

[bluewally]

I would argue that expectations have been raised and that's a big part of the reason why we are seeing the current levels of angst amongst the fans.

The number of people happy with an eleventh placed finish you could count on one hand my friend.

We will have to agree to disagree

 

[Boss_Blue]

We will have to agree to disagree

I disagree to agree to disagree.

I have enjoyed our full and thorough debate though x

 

[LAToffee]

I disagree to agree to disagree.

I have enjoyed our full and thorough debate though x

You're a model and inspiration for us all.

 

[madkiwi]

Is the large number of class goals we concede an indicator of the school of science reopening?

The best science usually involves an explosion or two. Maybe they should be handing out safety glasses at GP.

I'm sure West Brom players would appreciate them too.

 

[Boss_Blue]

You're a model and inspiration for us all.

*beams

 

[MassBlue]

Sorry for the lateness of my reply MB.

Definitely right regarding he was getting flack 2nd season from January onwards but that will happen if you have a couple of months of abject performances and results as was the case at the time.

Results matter, a lot and the person in the firing line whether it be football or business is the manager.

It's not just about the here and now, and it's not kneejerk ( not accusing you of saying some fans are ) if there's a section of the fanbase who want him gone. For every good thing he does, he has something not so good.

He will definitely be here until seasons end and that will be 3 years and if he is here next season well it will be a massive year for him, in fact not even year just the start of the season and the first 5-10 games.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Next season would be a season when it's his team and he's had the chance to make things as he wants them to be. Then it seems reasonable to judge.
Of course what counts as success, what counts as failure and what counts as par will probably never be known....(ok, so success has some pretty clear guidelines...silver things and Euro gold. But is repeated par a failure or just par?)

 

[Groucho]

Big slaps on the back for el Bob for occasionally letting us sniff the top half for a couple of weeks now and then. Care to address the point at hand and stop deflecting down pedantic avenues? Do you think this is a balanced side?

I'm using this post as an example of the verging-on-rude nature of some posts in this thread (of which there are many examples so don't take this personally).

There is no need for it folks, it just makes us look like bickering school kids. The (sometimes very unpleasant) sarcasm is not nice to read for us, for regulars or for new members. We want to see a meaningful debate, we don't want to see this sort of needless sniping, and this is a mild example!

Thanks.

 

[BlueToff]

Ive said several times he has a great eye for a player, is well liked and would make an excellent director of football.

It's on the pitch his problems are. And it's not a new phenomenon. His Wigan teams were entertaining to watch but had the same defensive flaws as we do albeit with lesser players. That's 10 years of not learning. I know many on here see improvement but to me it's minor and until it's sustained and produces results I can't shake the idea that he's not a complete manager.

Genuine question then but what is your idea of a complete manager?

I can't think of many managers, even the best ones, who don't make mistakes every now and then...

Everton as a club aren't in a position where we are going to have the 'best' manager in the league. Ultimately Martinez is a good fit for us and we a good fit for him.

As @LAToffee rightly pointed out, pro Martinez supporters do recognise that he has made mistakes and we're under performing. I'm sure he and the squad do as well.

But the fact remains that he isn't getting sacked anytime soom and this squad of players clearly enjoy playing for him. We've played some great stuff going forward this season so it's not like we haven't changed since some of the sideways dross that was served up last term.

It seems to me that some people are just not willing accept that and brush it off as 'the cult' making excuses.

We're not, we're just simply pointing out that there are other issues at hand and that it isn't all just down to the manager.

It's also in no way an invalid point to mention that there's still three months of this season left to play in the league, plus we've had two good cup runs (the second of which we are still in, obviously.)

Do I accept that things need to improve? Yes.

Do I accept Martinez has made mistakes? Yes.

Do I think he is entirely to blame for the position that we're in, or to be honest even mostly to blame? No, not at all.

 

[MikeH72]

There's always 'a big few weeks coming up'. He's still here and will be for the foreseeable regardless of the 'big few weeks coming up'.

Look, the feller has presented the most entertaining brand of football on a week to week basis in the country. Evertonians and non-Evertonians accept that. He's bought 2 of the most promising young players in European football and has developed two more of them that he inherited. We're scoring goals by the bucket load. We have scored the most open play goals of any team in the PL. His team has been the most consistent domestic cup team of the season, and we lie about 5 points off a definite EL spot and probably a lot less than that if the places are handed to those below 5th spot.

Because of all that, this feller is in about as an impregnable a position as you can be in this game.

Throw a window open onto the world. Posting stuff on a forum and having it 'liked' by about 10 other people seems to be giving you a false impression of reality.
.

My jaw has just hit the floor, ran off, and is now doing the Macarena on Bold Street