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Roberto Martinez discussion

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Thought this was an interesting article, putting forward a case that the Lennon/Naisse swap was (at least on paper) a like for like swap and wasn't directly the cause of our collapse.

http://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com...t=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

This is where my understanding of what went wrong Saturday afternoon differs from popular opinion. To me, it seemed that as soon as Lukaku missed the penalty, the entire team started to freeze up and think "Oh boy, here we go again." The proof is in both the possession totals and West Ham's crossing totals.
In the five or so minutes between Lukaku's missed penalty and the Lennon/Niasse substitution, possession looked something like the following.

West Ham had 85 percent of the possession in the five minutes after Lukaku's missed penalty and before Lennon was subbed off. 53.2 percent of that period was spent in Everton's defensive third. This led to an increased number of crosses from West Ham.

In those five minutes, West Ham had almost as many crosses as during the balance of the second half up to that point. Jagielka and Funes Mori were continuing to handle the crosses effectively, but this still shows Everton's slipping grip on the match.
Whether this was due to fatigue, lack of confidence, the inevitable push from West Ham, or any combination of these and other factors is difficult to say. But the proof is clear that directly after the missed penalty and before the Lennon/Niasse substitution, Everton's hold on the match was already loosening significantly.
When the substitution in question finally came in the 76th minute, Lennon departed with a second-half defensive map that looked like the following.

That's right, Lennon's defensive contribution in the second half boils down to a single failed tackle. This is no criticism of Lennon, mind you (regular readers of this space will know that I am Lennon's biggest fan). Rather, defending simply wasn't his duty given his role as a second striker in the second half.

I am totally open to arguments that he shouldn't have been playing that role in the second half, but the influence and defense maps make it pretty clear that he was. When Niasse came on for Lennon, the move boiled down to basically an attacker for an attacker.
I have no intentions of defending or praising Niasse's play, which was mediocre at best, but to criticize Martinez for destroying the team's shape by bringing on a player who is very accustomed to playing the role he was brought on to is simply ridiculous. And given that Lennon was clearly doing little defending in that role as well, there's little to tactically criticize in this change.
In fact, Everton conceded seven crosses in Niasse's 15+ minutes on the pitch, compared to 15 in the 30 minutes of the half before he was introduced. That is essentially a linear progression; Niasse's inclusion had no impact on the number of crosses conceded by his team.
However, the effectiveness of the crosses and long balls played by West Ham in the final 15 minutes obviously improved.

The locations from which these passes were played are essentially unchanged from the first 30 minutes of the second half. What does change is Everton's efficiency in dealing with them, as Funes Mori in particular fell asleep in marking a few times, which led directly to West Ham goals.

To recap, Martinez took off Lennon, a player with little defensive responsibility in the setup the Spaniard was utilizing, to bring on Niasse into the same role, a role Niasse has more experience in. In the time that followed, possession became more even and West Ham played a similar number of long balls and crosses as the rest of the match, but finally beat Everton's center-backs
 
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But he's brought some of these players in and you can't tell me we haven't been extremely unlucky this season, even half a dozen more points and it's not looking as bad as people make out, we could be involved in two semi finals as well, is that not good enough either ?
Well I agree with you to a degree that we have been unlucky, I suppose being consistent has been the problem, it up one week down the next, as fans we never know where we stand 2-0 up 15 minutes to go we lose, 3-2 against Chelsea draw just 2 examples. It can happen but it's happening far to often and it's so frustrating for us fans, in the end yesterday it would have felt better to lose 3-0 rather than throw away a 2-0 lead.
 
Thought this was an interesting article, putting forward a case that the Lennon/Naisse swap was (at least on paper) a like for like swap and wasn't directly the cause of our collapse.

http://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com...t=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

This is a perfect example of how something with loads of words and graphs can be total tosh.

It wasn't like for like, as the guy had no experience whatsoever in the league and plays nothing like Lennon does, who is a pacy shortarse with decent technique whose instinct is to run the ball in wide areas, whereas Niasse seems to be a guy who comes inside and is more physical.

So yes, that article is obviously rubbish.
 
Totally agree mate, I was sat there for the first time this season thinking 'this is a proper everton performance' with passion and character, and the fans responding accordingly. Then he had some sort of brain freeze and ruined the whole thing.

I'm not blaming him totally mate - but my view is that he very much facilitated our capitulation with that sub. After that the players also take the blame.

But yeh, RM messed up and undid all the good work he (and the team, bar the penalty miss - which I do think would have wrapped up the points) had done.
 

Thought this was an interesting article, putting forward a case that the Lennon/Naisse swap was (at least on paper) a like for like swap and wasn't directly the cause of our collapse.

http://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com...t=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

This is where my understanding of what went wrong Saturday afternoon differs from popular opinion. To me, it seemed that as soon as Lukaku missed the penalty, the entire team started to freeze up and think "Oh boy, here we go again." The proof is in both the possession totals and West Ham's crossing totals.
In the five or so minutes between Lukaku's missed penalty and the Lennon/Niasse substitution, possession looked something like the following.

West Ham had 85 percent of the possession in the five minutes after Lukaku's missed penalty and before Lennon was subbed off. 53.2 percent of that period was spent in Everton's defensive third. This led to an increased number of crosses from West Ham.

In those five minutes, West Ham had almost as many crosses as during the balance of the second half up to that point. Jagielka and Funes Mori were continuing to handle the crosses effectively, but this still shows Everton's slipping grip on the match.
Whether this was due to fatigue, lack of confidence, the inevitable push from West Ham, or any combination of these and other factors is difficult to say. But the proof is clear that directly after the missed penalty and before the Lennon/Niasse substitution, Everton's hold on the match was already loosening significantly.
When the substitution in question finally came in the 76th minute, Lennon departed with a second-half defensive map that looked like the following.

That's right, Lennon's defensive contribution in the second half boils down to a single failed tackle. This is no criticism of Lennon, mind you (regular readers of this space will know that I am Lennon's biggest fan). Rather, defending simply wasn't his duty given his role as a second striker in the second half.

I am totally open to arguments that he shouldn't have been playing that role in the second half, but the influence and defense maps make it pretty clear that he was. When Niasse came on for Lennon, the move boiled down to basically an attacker for an attacker.
I have no intentions of defending or praising Niasse's play, which was mediocre at best, but to criticize Martinez for destroying the team's shape by bringing on a player who is very accustomed to playing the role he was brought on to is simply ridiculous. And given that Lennon was clearly doing little defending in that role as well, there's little to tactically criticize in this change.
In fact, Everton conceded seven crosses in Niasse's 15+ minutes on the pitch, compared to 15 in the 30 minutes of the half before he was introduced. That is essentially a linear progression; Niasse's inclusion had no impact on the number of crosses conceded by his team.
However, the effectiveness of the crosses and long balls played by West Ham in the final 15 minutes obviously improved.

The locations from which these passes were played are essentially unchanged from the first 30 minutes of the second half. What does change is Everton's efficiency in dealing with them, as Funes Mori in particular fell asleep in marking a few times, which led directly to West Ham goals.

To recap, Martinez took off Lennon, a player with little defensive responsibility in the setup the Spaniard was utilizing, to bring on Niasse into the same role, a role Niasse has more experience in. In the time that followed, possession became more even and West Ham played a similar number of long balls and crosses as the rest of the match, but finally beat Everton's center-backs

I think the question here is whether Naisse done a similar job and had the same effect when Lennon is on the pitch the answer is negative.
 
This is a perfect example of how something with loads of words and graphs can be total tosh.

It wasn't like for like, as the guy had no experience whatsoever in the league and plays nothing like Lennon does, who is a pacy shortarse with decent technique whose instinct is to run the ball in wide areas, whereas Niasse seems to be a guy who comes inside and is more physical.

So yes, that article is obviously rubbish.
His point was more that Lennon was not doing much, if any, defending at the time so was doing little to stop crosses and the Naisse sub did little to change that.

Personally thought it a good article!
 
I think the question here is whether Naisse done a similar job and had the same effect when Lennon is on the pitch the answer is negative.

That article says that because Lennon threw one tackle in a period before he came off, then he wasn't defending, or doing much about the shape of our defending by closing down and filling gaps.

That's how clueless that article is. Quite special actually.
 
His point was more that Lennon was not doing much, if any, defending at the time so was doing little to stop crosses and the Naisse sub did little to change that.

Personally thought it a good article!

He was though. Defending is more than completing a tackle. The fact was Lennon was tracking runners, filling space and forcing West Ham sideways and into harried crosses that were dealt with.

Niasse did none of that, we got swamped on both sides as we could no longer rely on protection on Lennon's side, because Niasse did nothing.

I'm not even having a pop at Niasse either; I wouldn't have expected him to do anything, as he's a foreign striker with no experience.
 
Exactly, i don't know how Bobby can be blamed for three goals in 12 minutes with one strange substitute.

I'm not blaming him for the three goals. But we were looking just fine before that sub in that Lennon was key to us prventing their tactic of lumping crosses in from having any effect.

This wasn't so much to do with Lennon himself preventing the crosses, but more to do with him pressing high which kept Song at bay and also allowing McCarthy to drop into the area and provide an extra body to clear those crosses.

Apart from the 1st, which is a bit different as it was from a set-piece, then we just didn't deal with them at all for their goals and in similar situations before hand we had done with McCarthy being there.

Saying that, every team in the PL struggles with crosses, and we should take advantage of that more often - though we have shown we're capable of carving thorugh good sides.
 

He was though. Defending is more than completing a tackle. The fact was Lennon was tracking runners, filling space and forcing West Ham sideways and into harried crosses that were dealt with.

Niasse did none of that, we got swamped on both sides as we could no longer rely on protection on Lennon's side, because Niasse did nothing.

I'm not even having a pop at Niasse either; I wouldn't have expected him to do anything, as he's a foreign striker with no experience.
Appreciate that, which is why stats don't tell the whole story of a match as "being a bloody nuisance and not giving the oppostion time " doesn't get a category yet is an important facet of the game.

But from what I recall, Aaron (and Rom & Ross) looked tired and had all dropped off in their workrate, perhaps not to the little that Niasse did but understandably not up to the standard they were before.

Can't remember clearly the goals - probably cos I was with my hands over my eyes - but at least one of them seemed to be lack of pressing by Oviedo/Ross and then a mess up by RFM. Would Lennon have made that much difference to stop that circumstance occuring?
 
Exactly, i don't know how Bobby can be blamed for three goals in 12 minutes with one strange substitute.

I agree with this ye can't just blame Martinez for terrible substites for conceding 3, yeah have to blame his bad tactics and aswell he doesn't know what a good defence means.
 
Can't believe people are blaming Lukaku for us shipping 3 goals yesterday in 10/15 minutes. Players miss pens, it happens and yes the game would have been over at 3-0 but if Martinez makes the right change or even kept it how it was then I still think we would have won. Everything went wrong as soon as he made that tactical change. Why would you throw another forward on when down to 10 men. I see no logic in it at all. Don't get how people can't see that, not hard like.
 

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