Roberto Martinez discussion

[Deleted member 24970]

To be honest, I'd be interested to see someone write a completely well balanced argument and actually consider the good things Roberto has done for us, with his negative aspects. An article published by GOT or Everton Arent We maybe, because this is all the most tunnel visioned, one sided argument I've ever read.

What does that tell you then ?
Many of us have praised the guy to the mountain top, especially in his first year, if we can all praise the great one then he should take the flack when it goes wrong. Its football, results dictate attitude and right now it isn't good enough.

 

[Lanolin]

They have though?

Stones, Garbutt, Barkley (to a regular), Galloway, Browning...

They were all youth players - whether through the academy or brought in they were brought into the youth set up.

You're not having Barkley, who was playing most weeks in Moyes last couple of months. You'll also notice i made a specific distinction between those bought and those coming from our own set up. Buying the best young players and developing the ones you've got are two totally different things, and I was highlighting that we may not have got the most out of our own academy graduates.

I'd forgotten about Browning in all honesty, but still, a lad who was already 19 when the manager came in and has stil only made 2 starts in the following 3 years is hardly a success story. Garbutt has hardly had a sniff, and is now approaching the peak years of his career, he's 23 i think.

As I said, i'm only playing devil's advocate because I don't think that's one of Martinez's problems, just interesting to note that it's not something he's particularly excelled at.

 

[BlueToff]

What he obviously means is that for every two steps forward, it's six hundred and twelve steps back. It's not overall progression; not even close.

I'd personally say we've progressed in terms of our overall play to be able to be a team that can go from challenging to a top six place to challenging for and getting in the top four consistently - I honestly believe that in the long-run the basic premise of Martinez's style will help us achieve that.

But I agree that due to his inflexibility in certain aspects - defending being the most obvious one - he has shot himself and us in the foot many times - and the experienced players have not stepped up to the plate on enough occasions to drag us through it.

So, the question for me is just whether RM is the right manager to maintain this system but make the crucial tweaks and changes that can take it on to the next level. I'm willing to wait until this season pans out - barring any collapses in our next couple of games - and then reassess in the summer.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

I think our biggest problem isn't the manager, but the fans.

Home support is dreadful.

Yes that exciting brand of football winning games deserves so much more. Everyone is resigned to knowing what will happen before a ball is kicked - and that my friend is what really concerns me.

 

[Mickey]

Well if the rumours of dressing room unrest are true he's a dead man walking.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

suppose thats a possibility, we are always hearing how stubborn he is but no-one knows really...nice to hear some optimism in this thread

I am Mr. Balance

(Unless it's about Shane Duffy or Virgil Van Dijk)

 

[bluestevon]

I'd personally say we've progressed in terms of our overall play to be able to be a team that can go from challenging to a top six place to challenging for and getting in the top four consistently - I honestly believe that in the long-run the basic premise of Martinez's style will help us achieve that.

But I agree that due to his inflexibility in certain aspects - defending being the most obvious one - he has shot himself and us in the foot many times - and the experienced players have not stepped up to the plate on enough occasions to drag us through it.

So, the question for me is just whether RM is the right manager to maintain this system but make the crucial tweaks and changes that can take it on to the next level. I'm willing to wait until this season pans out - barring any collapses in our next couple of games - and then reassess in the summer.

How have we progressed to that though, we aren't challenging for top 4 - we are miles off that, we aren't even challneging for top 6 anymore mate - we had been for years before he came though, thats the opposite of progression, we ar egoing backwards and we are losing Lukaku away from being in really deep trouble under Martinez

 

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

I'm glad that we don't have a problem defending crosses. I would have thought we did based on watching us this season but now he's told us that we don't I see that we don't.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

I

You know you can get all in one package...why waste an effort?

Because I'm a swell guy

 

[Saint Domingo]

Well if the rumours of dressing room unrest are true he's a dead man walking.

Let's be honest, you don't mess with Bainesy and survive at Everton. Adios Roberto.

 

[Igrok]

I do worry about alot of you in here.
In your professional quests have you ever had setbacks? Do you know of people in your office, or your profession, that show great talent but keep making the same mistakes? How old are those lads/lasses? Why are they kept around? Probably because potential talent is worth patience. Patience. You have to either dedicate yourself to the long term or the short term. We've quite clearly gone for the former. Martinez therefore needs that patience to deliver a long term achievement.

You are like a plague of locusts everytime we lose or everytime the man speaks. You constantly barrage him yet you don't know what's going on behind closed doors. You have 90 mins 1 or 2x per week. Were you seeing what's happening at FF, you might appreciate that slowly but surely these players are improving.

It's a huge, huge rebuilding job that he's doing. Top to bottom. It takes longer than what he's had so far.

If we had shown no reason to be optimistic in the last 2 1/2 years then fair enough. That isn't the case though. We play probably the best football in the league when we are on it. It needs to be more consistent, granted. We need better results. Granted. But we are showing signs of progression despite what the doom-mongering of you would like the rest to believe.

Yes, the talent has to be nurtured and protected...but not the fraud

 

[BlueToff]

You're not having Barkley, who was playing most weeks in Moyes last couple of months. You'll also notice i made a specific distinction between those bought and those coming from our own set up. Buying the best young players and developing the ones you've got are two totally different things, and I was highlighting that we may not have got the most out of our own academy graduates.

I'd forgotten about Browning in all honesty, but still, a lad who was already 19 when the manager came in and has stil only made 2 starts in the following 3 years is hardly a success story. Garbutt has hardly had a sniff, and is now approaching the peak years of his career, he's 23 i think.

As I said, i'm only playing devil's advocate because I don't think that's one of Martinez's problems, just interesting to note that it's not something he's particularly excelled at.

Barkley made 7 appearances for us in 2012/13 in the league - 5 as a substitute. He started two games... Moyes introduced him into the first team but I'm sorry can take no where near the credit for establishing him.

Garbutt has not come through at Fulham as was hoped which is a shame, while Browning looks to be a good player in the making.

However, and I know you made the distinction, but there really shouldn't be a difference in saying it's not players we developed.

We brought Galloway in as an 18 year old and he played for our u-21s for a full season before getting 2 games at the end of last term.

Stones played 10-15 times (max?) for Barnsley before coming into our youth set up and being developed and then established by RM - that's not a slate on Moyes btw Stones wouldn't have been ready when he first signed.

 

[Mickey]

No Everton fan would no.

But we're talking about Wigan.

I'm not saying they'd have been happy about being relegated, but winning a trophy is a once-in-a-lifetime thing for a lot of clubs like that. They got to see that...

But that's not what you said mate and I quote, "Ask them whether they'd rather win that final, or spend another year scrapping against relegation?".

A direct choice between a Cup win and premiership survival. If you honestly feel that any fan would take a cup over prem survival, Wigan or Everton, then you're wrong mate.

 

[neil999]

I am Mr. Balance

(Unless it's about Shane Duffy or Virgil Van Dijk)

we could buy virgil in summer! actually him and forster would be lovely...

 

[Zatara]

Top fan, what for being realistic lad? you do know we haven't won in the last 16 visits to the pit don't you, yet you are already counting the 3 points from the game in hand we are gonna get there, christ your a fan of analysing thigns aren't you?, analyse this, we havent beaten a team who have been in the top half of the table all season when we played them, we haven't won in the last 16 visits to their ground, we don't deal well with teams that press us. but yeah continue being a top fan by being utterly deluded mate, go on lets test this, give us all your predicted results till the end of the season mate?

It was actually meant tongue in cheek mate

chin up!