Roberto Martinez discussion

[bluestevon]

Let's go one step further here mate.

Had I said to you before the game we would have a sending off after 25 mins or whatever, against WH, and we lost 3-2, would you have been surprised?

A question for you mate, if i had told you we would be 2-0 up with less than twenty minutes to go and we would end up losing would you have been surprised?

 

[Lanolin]

I just don't buy into that thought-process.

We don't pick the opponents.

Vs Stoke we were magnificent, as an example.

You're missing the point though. I'm not saying we weren't magnificent, same as I don't dispute that we were outstanding away at Southampton or home to Chelsea, or that we played reasonably well in defeats to City and Arsenal.

What i'm saying is that to claim we'd improved defensively simply because we didn't concede many in a handful of games, is a massive over simplification of the complexity of football, and ignores the fact that we would have been unlikely to concede many to Carlisle at any point of the season, and actually conceded more in the games against Newcastle and Villa than we had last time we played them.

It isn't evidence of anything, it's a fact yes, but only when you put it into context can you take anything from it. In context, it shows that we didn't concede many goals in part due to good performances (which has happened throughout the season in patches) and in part due to poor opposition. We conceded 3 in the game before this magical improved spell, and 3 in the game after it. Coincidentally against the best two sides we played.

You were saying that we'd not struggled against crosses in the previous 6 games, i'm saying we had but we got away with it. I've made the point before that clean sheets do not necessarily equal good defensive performances, and sometimes you can defend very well and concede a couple of goals. I honestly don't believe our defending has got much better recently, but obviously some people disagree, no big deal.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Unless said defensive coach has the authority to smack Martinez on the head whenever he thinks Niasse for Lennon at 2-0 with 10 men is a good idea, it wouldn't make much difference mate.

Just give him a rolled up newspaper and have him give Martinez a clip round the ear now and then

Golden

 

[tsubaki]

To those advocating Martinez as the right man for the job, what would it take (if indeed, anything...) for you to change your mind? When would enough be enough?

It depends what he does in the summer. If everyone stays, and he spends most of his time sorting out the defence (and the rest reminding the squad of the pain of Bournemouth away, Stoke at home, West Ham at home, Chelsea away etc etc) and recognizes his own faults and starts to remedy them, he should stay and we will probably win something next year.

If its more of the same then we should get rid. It will be a shame, and the shock will probably turn him into a better manager who we will regret letting go, but its hard to see what else could be done to fix things otherwise.

 

[Little Ralphy]

I think people who enjoy watching good football and can see the massive rebuilding job he has on his hands as opposed to those thinking we will end up top 6 with a poor squad and no money have a bit more common sense and patience to be honest.

i also find it laughable reading the posts on here after the game on sat. Pathetic actually.

I'm curious what you think good football is?

Why is it a massive rebuilding job?

 

[bluestevon]

When we stop seeing progression.
When I stop seeing players like Ross Barkley and Romelu Lukaku being turned into genuine quality players.
When I stop enjoying watching the team play when we are on it. Every team has bad games. We have more because of the sheer volume of youth and inexperience we have injected into our side.
When he has clearly finished his recruitment drive - we are still missing a GK, left winger, CB.
When we stop giving youth a chance.
When he has had a proper amount of time to implement the necessary changes - 2 and 1/2 years, when one of them was superb and a true reflection of the long term aim is, isn't enough time.

Do you think that that one superb season may have had a lot of influence from the previous manager and things he instilled into the players?

 

[neil999]

You'd hope Martinez and the defensive coach would work together to come up with a strategy

I think it's less the playing from the back is the issue and more our organisation at set pieces, our falability when it comes to crosses and our total lack of pressing when the opposition of the ball

You can correct these and still play out from the back just fine

It's worth trying it than sticking with how things are right now

I believe Roberto Martinez can make this work, I truly do, but he has to show some flexibility when it comes to his "vision"

suppose thats a possibility, we are always hearing how stubborn he is but no-one knows really...nice to hear some optimism in this thread

 

[tsubaki]

I think people who enjoy watching good football and can see the massive rebuilding job he has on his hands as opposed to those thinking we will end up top 6 with a poor squad and no money have a bit more common sense and patience to be honest.

i also find it laughable reading the posts on here after the game on sat. Pathetic actually.

It isn't a massive rebuilding job at all; if everyone stays we need two players to be a really good side.

 

[BlueToff]

We aren't showing signs of progression. Our record this year is similar to last year. We have scored more goals and been ahead in a lot of matches. We come away from a lot of matches kicking ourselves thinking we should have won but we are still unable to find a balance between defence and attack. We still never play for 90 mins. We still often lack tempo and intensity in our pressing and passing. Our subs are still terrible. More or less the same squad finished 5 two years ago. I fail to see how we are progressing.

Errr....

Look, we're all frustrated and my position on RM is now one of that he has for me to turn our home form around and get an end result come May. If not I'd be happy to see him go - or I'd accept it anyway.

However, he's not going anywhere before then barring a drastic change to heavy defeats so until then let's still wait and see. If he can somehow turn this around (which after Saturday i'm not so sure he can as I was before) then the time will be right for him to go.

 

[BlueToff]

You'd hope Martinez and the defensive coach would work together to come up with a strategy

I think it's less the playing from the back is the issue and more our organisation at set pieces, our falability when it comes to crosses and our total lack of pressing when the opposition have the ball

You can correct these and still play out from the back just fine

It's worth trying it than sticking with how things are right now

I believe Roberto Martinez can make this work, I truly do, but he has to show some flexibility when it comes to his "vision"

Spot on mate, especially on the set pieces and Martinez needing to be flexible.

 

[Tubey]

Errr....

Look, we're all frustrated and my position on RM is now one of that he has for me to turn our home form around and get an end result come May. If not I'd be happy to see him go - or I'd accept it anyway.

However, he's not going anywhere before then barring a drastic change to heavy defeats so until then let's still wait and see. If he can somehow turn this around (which after Saturday i'm not so sure he can as I was before) then the time will be right for him to go.

What he obviously means is that for every two steps forward, it's six hundred and twelve steps back. It's not overall progression; not even close.

 

[Igrok]

I

He needs to bring in a new defensive coach and just let him/her handle the defending aspect

That, combined with some decent signings in the summer thanks to an increased transfer kitty, and I think he'll be fine

You know you can get all in one package...why waste an effort?

 

[bluestevon]

lennon was playing as a support striker by then so it was a like for like replacement.

which actually is what 50% of the posters slagging martinez havent realised....it wasnt even a tactical change by then.

they are then saying if lennon had stayed on...well it shouldnt make any difference as niasee should have performed instead of a shatterred lennon in the same position.

So do we blame lennon for being tired or niasse for being poor or marrinez for some substitution which doesnt affect the fact mori didnt clear headers.

its all very exhausting.

Okay so from that comment you are going off what the commentators said about how Lennon was playing rather than using your own eyes. Lennon played as a support striker - err no he didn't - when we had the ball and went on the attack he did, when we didn't have it - which was more often than not he was going into a defensive position on the wing, when Naisse came on he stayed up front when w ehad it and when we didnt - the entire mdifield shape altered and we went to a 3 centre mids and gave up the wings which led to us getting pelted with crosses as we stopped closing them down their

Lennon looks so relieved to be taken off, overcame his tiredness even as he managed to jog looking fine when he and his teammates got over the shock of seeing him subbed ofc.

Lennon shattered LOL

 

[Blues Harp]

When we stop seeing progression.
When I stop seeing players like Ross Barkley and Romelu Lukaku being turned into genuine quality players.
When I stop enjoying watching the team play when we are on it. Every team has bad games. We have more because of the sheer volume of youth and inexperience we have injected into our side.
When he has clearly finished his recruitment drive - we are still missing a GK, left winger, CB.
When we stop giving youth a chance.
When he has had a proper amount of time to implement the necessary changes - 2 and 1/2 years, when one of them was superb and a true reflection of the long term aim is, isn't enough time.

I have already stopped enjoying watching the team play at home (S/T holder ) after SEVEN defeats - most of them having been thrown away - this is worse points wise than than the dreadful '94 season - do you go and suffer with the majority of us who walk out the game at the end completely pissed off at the performance? Because I haven't heard one comment from my fellow Blues post game either in the stand, in the street, or in the pub that advocates keeping Martinez. But we are all wrong aren't we ?

 

[AJC5]

How so? The stats back it up...

if ignoring stats, sat:

Lukaku scores we win (bilic said so himself)
Mori clears 2 headers we win

Thats just based on the feel of how the game was going. Dont you think we would have gone on to win the game against the team in 5th place with 10 men if either of the above happened?

It was an impressive performance but the Niasse substitution is the nail in the coffin for me. Inexplicable decision on so many levels. Martinez has qualities but is ultimately a flawed coach. He has had nearly three seasons to improve and learn and has failed to do so.