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Roberto Martinez discussion

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If we finish bottom half again for the second season running, he'll have failed, it really is that simple.

The only reason he's escaped the flack that our league form has merited, has been due to the cup runs.

He's an egotist, always has been. I remember sitting there watching his awful Wigan side at Goodison in 2011, and the way he was trying to get those yard dog defenders he had at the time to play was embarrassing. His 'philosophy' was all he was interested in. The players he had at his disposal, simply weren't good enough technically to play the way he wanted his side to play. So any manager worth his salt would have held the 'philosophy' as an end goal - UNTIL such times that he had the personnel capable of delivering it.

But not Roberto, he put the 'philosophy' first, front and centre, and that told me way back then, that he wasn't pragmatic enough as a manager, and it was all about him, and his vanity project, as opposed to what was best for the club he was being paid to lead.

That 'philosophy' eventually took them down, albeit with the bonus of the Cup run that left Wigan with some silverware (and yes that win at Goodison along the way). His football can win games, but you'll always be vulnerable to defeat with this bloke, he's career shows just that. His lack of defensive focus and the lack of pragmatism when it's needed will always make him a manager who flatters to deceive imo.
 
I know that mate and I'm not defending that.

I'm saying that people shouldn't say we've shown no progression then in the same post say 'we score more goals and are more entertaining'.

By definition the term 'more' in that context pretty much equals progression.

What hasn't progressed - I agree - is the results and at the end of the day that's the main thing.

Now, I'm still willing - for lack of a better option in some ways as well (caretaker managers reek of club in crisis and would not indicate to our young stars that this new owner has the situation under control in any way whatsoever) - to give RM until the end of the season to get an end result - and as I said I'd accept top 8 or the FA Cup - and that would give him the time at the start of next season.

If he failed at the start of the term to show clear improvement and progression in regards to the defence etc than he'd have to go.
I suppose saying top 8, top 7, top 10 is a little bit irelevant this season because finishing 8th might be nowhere, or it could be not far off 5th in the league, if you get me/ So all the drop points before then factor into the season where if it ws nowhere then its a moot point.

What i want to see to be honest is to win some games and at least go throug hthe motions of the season despite it being over. Granted win on saturday and it' a different avenue to chase but it is banking on a hell of a lot, especialy when it still involves a manager never beaten in the competition and possibly a team not beaten in 2 years in it.
 
How did it affect the shape when it was a like for like change?

Because it wasn't a like for like sub Zat, the commetary said it was - they no surprise got that wrong, Lennon was playing wide and pressing the hell out of them when they had the ball, when we had it he was bombing forward to join rom, naisse just came on and ambled around up front, closed down nothign and didnt go wide when they had it

we went from 4-4-1 to a 4-3-2 when he came on mate, thats why we got all those crosses coming in after the sub
 
How did it affect the shape when it was a like for like change?

It wasn't like for like Zat.

Lennon was playing wide left and drifting in but his Prem experience means that he knew how to handle himself in that situation.

A like for like change - or the most similar one available - would have been Del.
Naturally a wide man with a lot of pace to keep the W.Ham defenders pushed back and on their toes wary of the counter.

He shouldn't have made a 'like for like' change though. He shouldn't have made a change at all and if it had to be done it should have been Barry or Baines.
 

I suppose saying top 8, top 7, top 10 is a little bit irelevant this season because finishing 8th might be nowhere, or it could be not far off 5th in the league, if you get me/ So all the drop points before then factor into the season where if it ws nowhere then its a moot point.

What i want to see to be honest is to win some games and at least go throug hthe motions of the season despite it being over. Granted win on saturday and it' a different avenue to chase but it is banking on a hell of a lot, especialy when it still involves a manager never beaten in the competition and possibly a team not beaten in 2 years in it.

Yep main one for me (just in league - not counting cup as that's different) would be home form.

Show that he can turn the home form around by not losing any of them and I'd like to see us win at least three of the four (?) left.

That, and maintain our away form. That's what I want to see in the league.
 
I am actually now wondering what sticks will be used to beat martinez with if we beat chelsea...

Hes on track for me with a few blips which dont take much to sort out.

if be more concerned if we werent the better team in games.
 
How did it affect the shape when it was a like for like change?

How is it s like for like change? Niasse is a striker with no experience of the premier league. Lennon is an experienced winger. Moyes used to get absolutely shafted by some fans for playing anyone out of position even if it worked. Martinez started the season with Kone and Cleverley on the flanks (a striker and a central midfielder) whilst Lennon Mirallas and Deulofeu sat on the bench. It hasn't worked, it didn't work last season. In no way is Niasse a like for like swap for Lennon. Left wing is not the place for 13 million pound strikers.
 
I know that mate and I'm not defending that.

I'm saying that people shouldn't say we've shown no progression then in the same post say 'we score more goals and are more entertaining'.

By definition the term 'more' in that context pretty much equals progression.

What hasn't progressed - I agree - is the results and at the end of the day that's the main thing.

Now, I'm still willing - for lack of a better option in some ways as well (caretaker managers reek of club in crisis and would not indicate to our young stars that this new owner has the situation under control in any way whatsoever) - to give RM until the end of the season to get an end result - and as I said I'd accept top 8 or the FA Cup - and that would give him the time at the start of next season.

If he failed at the start of the term to show clear improvement and progression in regards to the defence etc than he'd have to go.

I dont find us entertaining. It's 90 minutes of worry. Yes we attack more but as I've said before that's easy if you don't care about defence.

It's 5-a-side on a tuesday night tactics.

Really the ones calling us "the entertainers" are the neutrals.

Who wouldn't be entertained seeing 5 or 6 goal thrillers where 1 team is liable to implode in the last 10 minutes where you have no personal loyalty either way.

Caretaker managers reek of a club in crisis. I don't agree. It shows a club that's willing to accept they made the wrong appointment and giving themselves plenty of time to try and make sure the same mistake isn't repeated.

And lets be honest 4 home wins in 12 months isn't that far from a crisis anyway
 

I am actually now wondering what sticks will be used to beat martinez with if we beat chelsea...

Hes on track for me with a few blips which dont take much to sort out.


if be more concerned if we werent the better team in games.

I think that's the thing Zat, and I still want him in.

'A few blips which don't take much to sort out'

Well why hasn't he sorted them out? Why does he keep making the mistakes like the stupid substitution?
 
I know that mate and I'm not defending that.

I'm saying that people shouldn't say we've shown no progression then in the same post say 'we score more goals and are more entertaining'.

By definition the term 'more' in that context pretty much equals progression.

What hasn't progressed - I agree - is the results and at the end of the day that's the main thing.

Now, I'm still willing - for lack of a better option in some ways as well (caretaker managers reek of club in crisis and would not indicate to our young stars that this new owner has the situation under control in any way whatsoever) - to give RM until the end of the season to get an end result - and as I said I'd accept top 8 or the FA Cup - and that would give him the time at the start of next season.

If he failed at the start of the term to show clear improvement and progression in regards to the defence etc than he'd have to go.

Problem is he will have wasted all of our transfer war chest by then and we will have another season in transition.

Scoring more goals at the same time as conceding more isn't progress in my eyes.
 
I dont find us entertaining. It's 90 minutes of worry. Yes we attack more but as I've said before that's easy if you don't care about defence.

It's 5-a-side on a tuesday night tactics.

Really the ones calling us "the entertainers" are the neutrals.

Who wouldn't be entertained seeing 5 or 6 goal thrillers where 1 team is liable to implode in the last 10 minutes where you have no personal loyalty either way.

Caretaker managers reek of a club in crisis. I don't agree. It shows a club that's willing to accept they made the wrong appointment and giving themselves plenty of time to try and make sure the same mistake isn't repeated.

And lets be honest 4 home wins in 12 months isn't that far from a crisis anyway

If a new owner came in across the park, and sacked Klopp and put a caretaker manager in at this point, you'd say they were a club in crisis. It stinks of it.

I'm not saying the homes form is good. It's terrible.

Our away form is the exact opposite, thankfully.

He is going to get until the end of the season barring a major implosion in the next two games.
 
They were going down eventually mate. They'd been staving it off for 5 years.

The club spent 2 years in the championship. It's not RM's fault they failed to use the parachute payments and rebuild in that division...

Yes finishing 11th the season before he arrived. Staved it off well
 

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