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Roberto Martinez discussion

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I agree with this, but personally I think the away defending is more down to how we play as the away team. We seem to be better defensively when we don’t have as much of the ball, because it means as a team we have more numbers in the defensive third. I honestly don’t think we are organised any better, we just have more people there, meaning less space for the opposition. Away from home when we gain possession we have power and pace to hit teams on the counter. We are excellent at this due to the players we have.


At home or in games when we enjoy more of the ball, we tend to play ourselves in to trouble. We don’t have as many people in our defensive third, as we move up with the ball we then tend to commit too many players forward and leave ourselves man for man at the back. Teams can then counter on us. It doesn’t mean they will always score directly from the counter but it does mean they can gain possession and quickly progress to more dangerous areas, or they will have time and space due to us not really pressing the ball as a team to pick out a good pass or cross. For a team with 2 players who are defensively minded in the midfield it’s crazy that we can look so open in games.


I said this in Martinez’ first season, for his system to work defensively, you would need players with an exceptional work-rate, mobility, and tactical discipline right throughout the midfield and full back areas. We just don’t have that in those positions, Barry doesn’t have the mobility to cover for the fullbacks when they push so high and McCarthy doesn’t have the tactical discipline. Besic offers a lot of those qualities to be fair, but Barkley is all but redundant when we don’t have the ball.


Lennon has all of those qualities to be fair and that’s why he appears to be so important to Everton. He almost does the work of two men. This was very evident on Saturday. I think it’s kind of counter-productive though, because we’re almost sacrificing a creative wide position for a wide player’s defensive work-rate. I think this is also why Everton seem to just die at the end of games, players would need to be super fit to do what’s being asked and quite frankly they’re not. Look at the Spurs side and how hard they work and how fit they look. Unfortunately now, it’s got to the point when once we concede near the end everyone (fans and players included) just seem to know that we’re going to concede more. They have no faith in the system or themselves to see it through.


I’ve argued before about game management, once we take the lead in games, if we just reigned the full backs in and restricted their runs, then it’d put far less pressure on the midfield, and we’d be able to crowd certain areas of the pitch like we can in away games. It wouldn’t be defensive like parking the bus, it’s just playing smart and restricting the space for the opposition, and with the players Everton have on the counter, we’d probably be more dangerous than we are when we’re passing the ball around in the final third.

Spurs place such a load upon their fullbacks - and midfield - that they rotate them every game. We can't do that. Even so, the strain seems to be telling on Spurs' squad.

I wouldn't say that we now play the same way that we did in Martinez' first season. However, with the limitations you see in Barry, McCarthy and Barkley - plus those of Besic and Mirallas - and the sacrifice of a creative wide position to restrict space for the opposition, how high do you think we should be?
 
exactly what you just said mate. You don't blame the striker yet you include him? Makes no difference if he is smashing goal scoring records for us this year, you hold him accountable for not turning those draws you mentioned into wins. So how many do you expect him to score? He has scored one less than the striker at the top of the league, one more than the striker that is second in the league. Would you be happy if he scored every week then? I mean he score dffor 8/9 weeks in a run as well, first everton striker to do that in god knows how long.

As i said lukaku carries no blame or even suspicion this year, he has more than done his job for the team and that sort of return should have us challenging for the league title, only one reason why we aren't even close to that.

And to the point i'm trying to make, this all shows the straws clutched at by anyone, including yourself, when defending martinez, that is how it all sounds. Ignores his entire premier league career so far, ignores all the bad results, ignores the fact this all happened a year ago as well, it ignores the same things happening over and over again, because you all believe that here is a chance all of this is going to change and we will become great. Even to the point of even hinting that the best striker since lineker here has any part to play in all of this.

We shouldn't have to settle for martinez, so why should we?


No I do not. I include him in a side that is underachieving and rightly so.

I don't expect him to score 3 every game or anything.

I'm simply pointing out that he has also missed a lot of chances this year that had they gone in may have seen different results. That's a fair point. I don't blame him though...

RM has a lot to fix and sort out.

I've said numerous times that Saturday's result put me firmly on the fence. But that doesn't mean that he's going to go before season's end or even definitely at the end of this season.

He's shown how good he can be and ultimately how bad he can be - sometimes in the same game (like Saturday).

It's not 'settling' for anybody, it's giving the person that has shown the promise in the first place chance to see it through and for me that requires at least three full seasons barring any looming threat of relegation.
 
No I do not. I include him in a side that is underachieving and rightly so.

I don't expect him to score 3 every game or anything.

I'm simply pointing out that he has also missed a lot of chances this year that had they gone in may have seen different results. That's a fair point. I don't blame him though...

RM has a lot to fix and sort out.

I've said numerous times that Saturday's result put me firmly on the fence. But that doesn't mean that he's going to go before season's end or even definitely at the end of this season.

He's shown how good he can be and ultimately how bad he can be - sometimes in the same game (like Saturday).

It's not 'settling' for anybody, it's giving the person that has shown the promise in the first place chance to see it through and for me that requires at least three full seasons barring any looming threat of relegation.
all i'll say mate to save repeating ourselves is that if rom had more of these chances he missed put away, he would be on bar with ronaldo/messi/suarez levels of goal scoring!
 
No I do not. I include him in a side that is underachieving and rightly so.

I don't expect him to score 3 every game or anything.

I'm simply pointing out that he has also missed a lot of chances this year that had they gone in may have seen different results. That's a fair point. I don't blame him though...

RM has a lot to fix and sort out.

I've said numerous times that Saturday's result put me firmly on the fence. But that doesn't mean that he's going to go before season's end or even definitely at the end of this season.

He's shown how good he can be and ultimately how bad he can be - sometimes in the same game (like Saturday).

It's not 'settling' for anybody, it's giving the person that has shown the promise in the first place chance to see it through and for me that requires at least three full seasons barring any looming threat of relegation.
But the point @Ashtonian is making is a good one. Of course he's missed chances, all strikers do, but for every game where a miss has meant we've lost points there's another game where his goals have gained points. He is massively in credit as far as i'm concerned, and while the team may be underachieving I don't see how any blame can be attached to him at all. A number of players have underperformed this season, but Lukaku, Lennon, and Barkley are beyond reproach for me.
 

How do you know he hasn't shown those qualities.

The two games he's played he's been on a total of 18 minutes - and in completely different situations.

I wasn't happy with the sub I've said that, but you're already writing off a player that's played a combined 34 minutes for us...
He hasn't written Naisse off. He's just saying that so far he hasn't shown those qualities because, as you say, he's barely had any game time.
 
He hasn't put penny one in the club so far. If he invests heavily then failure occurs I'd expect action only after that.

If you were Moshiri, would you "invest heavily" unless you were confident you had the right man at the helm?
Face it, the jury is still out on Martinez - and that's best case...
 
Spurs place such a load upon their fullbacks - and midfield - that they rotate them every game. We can't do that. Even so, the strain seems to be telling on Spurs' squad.

I wouldn't say that we now play the same way that we did in Martinez' first season. However, with the limitations you see in Barry, McCarthy and Barkley - plus those of Besic and Mirallas - and the sacrifice of a creative wide position to restrict space for the opposition, how high do you think we should be?

Then he should play a different system, one that suits the players he has at his disposal. His system is flawed as it puts too much pressure on the midfield, there is no organisation defensively other than to have numbers in areas and there is no in-game management. We play the same way regardless of the scoreline it seems, which is just crazy.

I think Leicester and even West Ham have opened up all managers for criticism this season. They've shown there is no glass ceiling and you do not need World Class players to compete. If you have a manager with the right game plan and the players to carry it out then in this league you can achieve great things. Neither play boring football either.

Martinez is something like the 4th longest serving manager in the league, and he had a decent starting point to begin with. We also have the second best striker in the league IMO.

Lukaku said the aim for everyone at the club is Champions League Football, someone posted the quotes in another thread, I can't disagree with him. Whether you get it is another matter, but we should at least be pushing like West Ham are trying to do.
 
I disagree. The amount of game time he got in the Villa game directly contributed to him getting longer in a much less suitable situation at the weekend in my opinion.

Had he got 20 minutes against Villa he may a) have been more aware of what was required of him against West Ham, or b) shown himself to be currently unable to impact a premier league game and therefore been left out. I said it at the time and i'll say it again, there was never going to be a better chance to give the lad a decent run out than that Villa game. Instead we left Lennon and Lukaku on for 90 minutes, and then complained that they were too tired to complete the next game. Wonderful stuff.

The Villa and W.Ham games were totally different.

You're surely just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Niasse just shouldn't have been brought on (for Lennon) on Saturday. Had he come on for Rom I don't think we'd be having this discussion.
 
The Villa and W.Ham games were totally different.

You're surely just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Niasse just shouldn't have been brought on (for Lennon) on Saturday. Had he come on for Rom I don't think we'd be having this discussion.
I'm not 'arguing' at all, i'm just saying I have a different view of it to you. That's allowed, is it not?

I know the Villa and West Ham games were totally different, that's exactly the point i'm making. One was a game which was seemingly won with 20 minutes to go. We all know that the lad needs some game time to get used to the premier league, and I said during the game and on here afterwards that I felt we had missed the perfect opportunity to give him some time on the pitch. I've also made the point numerous times that I would take every opportunity to rest Lukaku, and I think this was one of them. I think it's also fair to point out that Lennon has been taken off in two home games when the crowd felt he should be left on, but the manager said he was too tired. He has, however, remained on the pitch in games against Villa and Stoke which were won with plenty to spare. It seems a bit incongruous, no?

I agree that we probably wouldn't be discussing this if Niasse had come on for Rom, but I still think the Villa game would have been a better time to use him. You're perfectly entitled to disagree, i'm not trying to change your mind, simply to put forward my thoughts on the subject.
 
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Then he should play a different system, one that suits the players he has at his disposal. His system is flawed as it puts too much pressure on the midfield, there is no organisation defensively other than to have numbers in areas and there is no in-game management. We play the same way regardless of the scoreline it seems, which is just crazy.

I think Leicester and even West Ham have opened up all managers for criticism this season. They've shown there is no glass ceiling and you do not need World Class players to compete. If you have a manager with the right game plan and the players to carry it out then in this league you can achieve great things. Neither play boring football either.

Martinez is something like the 4th longest serving manager in the league, and he had a decent starting point to begin with. We also have the second best striker in the league IMO.

Lukaku said the aim for everyone at the club is Champions League Football, someone posted the quotes in another thread, I can't disagree with him. Whether you get it is another matter, but we should at least be pushing like West Ham are trying to do.

But you think that Barry, McCarthy and Barkley are limited players. And you say that we need more men in midfield to deny the opposition space.

And both Besic and Mirallas have their rash moments.

Exactly what system do you think Martinez needs to play to get this squad into the Champions League?
 
As you explain at great length, it shows how you misunderstand - or pretend to - the approach taken by Martinez.

If Martinez had gone gung-ho against Liverpool and they had scored on the counter attack, you would have been the first one to complain!

What is this ridiculous new approach you and Zat are taking? Basically if anyone disagrees with you they don't understand football?

There's many ways to skin a cat especially one as average as that Liverpool side. I could buy that Martinez, so scarred from his absolute mauling at the hands of the genius Brendan Rodgers, didn't trust his possession game v Liverpool so wanted to win a different way. Had we sat deep and sprung on the counter as a way of beating Liverpool I would have called it good management. What we did that game though was nothing like that. We made no attempt to win the game until the last few minutes. That is not good enough for Everton at home. Yes we could have lost, but we could have easily won. Martinez is paid to try and ensure the latter. Do you honestly think that what we did was the best way to approach that game and 0-0 was the best result we could hope for? Complete and utter deluded tosh spouted to suit the agenda of Martinez's infallibility. Just like he'd like us all to believe, everything good is down to him, everything bad is someone else's fault or isn't really bad st all despite what all the stats say.
 
What is this ridiculous new approach you and Zat are taking? Basically if anyone disagrees with you they don't understand football?

There's many ways to skin a cat especially one as average as that Liverpool side. I could buy that Martinez, so scarred from his absolute mauling at the hands of the genius Brendan Rodgers, didn't trust his possession game v Liverpool so wanted to win a different way. Had we sat deep and sprung on the counter as a way of beating Liverpool I would have called it good management. What we did that game though was nothing like that. We made no attempt to win the game until the last few minutes. That is not good enough for Everton at home. Yes we could have lost, but we could have easily won. Martinez is paid to try and ensure the latter. Do you honestly think that what we did was the best way to approach that game and 0-0 was the best result we could hope for? Complete and utter deluded tosh spouted to suit the agenda of Martinez's infallibility. Just like he'd like us all to believe, everything good is down to him, everything bad is someone else's fault or isn't really bad st all despite what all the stats say.

You've avoided my point.

The example I gave was of a substitution - Alcaraz coming on for Besic - that the fans did not like but did not understand.
 
exactly what you just said mate. You don't blame the striker yet you include him? Makes no difference if he is smashing goal scoring records for us this year, you hold him accountable for not turning those draws you mentioned into wins. So how many do you expect him to score? He has scored one less than the striker at the top of the league, one more than the striker that is second in the league. Would you be happy if he scored every week then? I mean he score dffor 8/9 weeks in a run as well, first everton striker to do that in god knows how long.

As i said lukaku carries no blame or even suspicion this year, he has more than done his job for the team and that sort of return should have us challenging for the league title, only one reason why we aren't even close to that.

And to the point i'm trying to make, this all shows the straws clutched at by anyone, including yourself, when defending martinez, that is how it all sounds. Ignores his entire premier league career so far, ignores all the bad results, ignores the fact this all happened a year ago as well, it ignores the same things happening over and over again, because you all believe that here is a chance all of this is going to change and we will become great. Even to the point of even hinting that the best striker since lineker here has any part to play in all of this.

We shouldn't have to settle for martinez, so why should we?

Exactly. It's a convenient line of argument that isn't it. When Rom wins a game for us with some brilliant goals Martinez takes the credit. When he has an off day or misses even one chance, well that's all on Rom and Roberto can wash his hands of it.

I dread to think where we would be had Lukaku got injured this season. He's been exceptional from start to finish, one of the best strikers in the league, and has rescued loads of games for us. Seeing some fans throwing him under the bus to fuel their delusion of Martinez's infallibility is ridiculous. What fob they expect him to do? 100% chance conversion and 50 goals a season? Anything to shift the blame. #anyonebutroberto
 
I'm not 'arguing' at all, i'm just saying I have a different view of it to you. That's allowed, is it not?

I know the Villa and West Ham games were totally different, that's exactly the point i'm making. One was a game which was seemingly won with 20 minutes to go. We all know that the lad needs some game time to get used to the premier league, and I said during the game and on here afterwards that I felt we had missed the perfect opportunity to give him some time on the pitch. I've also made the point numerous times that I would take every opportunity to rest Lukaku, and I think this was one of them. I think it's also fair to point out that Lennon has been taken off in two home games when the crowd felt he should be left on, but the manager said he was too tired. He has, however, remained on the pitch in games against Villa and Stoke which were won with plenty to spare. It seems a bit incongruous, no?

I agree that we probably wouldn't be discussing this if Niasse had come on for Rom, but I still think the Villa game would have been a better time to use him. You're perfectly entitled to disagree, i'm not trying to change your mind, simply to put forward my thoughts on the subject.

Apologies Lan, miss-understood your post.

Fair play.

I personally think we didn't do too much wrong with his game time - even the other day I think the sub would have been okay as long as it was Rom who was going off.

RM should have just left well alone. Though I don't think it was specifically just to get Niasse game time. I think it was a tactical thing that he thought would work - but why he thought that after having made every correct decision for the previous 75 minutes baffles me.
 

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