Roberto Martinez discussion

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

...so why retain the old Chairman?

Exactly

Bill's word still mean's a lot, and Martinez is his guy

Hence, Martinez isn't going anywhere in the short term, for better or worse

That being said, I don't think Bill is always going to be there

I wonder what happens then?

 

[Little Ralphy]

Yep agree here.


It's not the quality of players at the back that are the issue I'd say - it's the general set up of the team and how they defend as a unit. They all defend individually very well but as a unit are useless a lot of the times. It's why we struggle so much at crosses than compared to other things.


It's a worry, obviously, and something that needs sorting.


In certain games when we have defended as a unit (a lot of the times away from home) we've looked a lot better and inevitably solid, so Martinez has shown he can do it.


I think key to that is disciplined wide midfielders which is why Lennon is so important at the moment as he gives that balance and experience. Cleverley too at times.

I agree with this, but personally I think the away defending is more down to how we play as the away team. We seem to be better defensively when we don’t have as much of the ball, because it means as a team we have more numbers in the defensive third. I honestly don’t think we are organised any better, we just have more people there, meaning less space for the opposition. Away from home when we gain possession we have power and pace to hit teams on the counter. We are excellent at this due to the players we have.


At home or in games when we enjoy more of the ball, we tend to play ourselves in to trouble. We don’t have as many people in our defensive third, as we move up with the ball we then tend to commit too many players forward and leave ourselves man for man at the back. Teams can then counter on us. It doesn’t mean they will always score directly from the counter but it does mean they can gain possession and quickly progress to more dangerous areas, or they will have time and space due to us not really pressing the ball as a team to pick out a good pass or cross. For a team with 2 players who are defensively minded in the midfield it’s crazy that we can look so open in games.


I said this in Martinez’ first season, for his system to work defensively, you would need players with an exceptional work-rate, mobility, and tactical discipline right throughout the midfield and full back areas. We just don’t have that in those positions, Barry doesn’t have the mobility to cover for the fullbacks when they push so high and McCarthy doesn’t have the tactical discipline. Besic offers a lot of those qualities to be fair, but Barkley is all but redundant when we don’t have the ball.


Lennon has all of those qualities to be fair and that’s why he appears to be so important to Everton. He almost does the work of two men. This was very evident on Saturday. I think it’s kind of counter-productive though, because we’re almost sacrificing a creative wide position for a wide player’s defensive work-rate. I think this is also why Everton seem to just die at the end of games, players would need to be super fit to do what’s being asked and quite frankly they’re not. Look at the Spurs side and how hard they work and how fit they look. Unfortunately now, it’s got to the point when once we concede near the end everyone (fans and players included) just seem to know that we’re going to concede more. They have no faith in the system or themselves to see it through.


I’ve argued before about game management, once we take the lead in games, if we just reigned the full backs in and restricted their runs, then it’d put far less pressure on the midfield, and we’d be able to crowd certain areas of the pitch like we can in away games. It wouldn’t be defensive like parking the bus, it’s just playing smart and restricting the space for the opposition, and with the players Everton have on the counter, we’d probably be more dangerous than we are when we’re passing the ball around in the final third.

 

[edge]

...so why retain the old Chairman?

sentiment ,and a person to show him around the place and settle in

 

[BlueToff]

Exactly

Bill's word still mean's a lot, and Martinez is his guy

Hence, Martinez isn't going anywhere in the short term, for better or worse

That being said, I don't think Bill is always going to be there

I wonder what happens then?

Yep barring a run of three defeats I think RM is safe until the end of the season.

There will be an enquiry of sorts however at that point and I'm sure RM will be set certain criteria that if he fails to meet by a certain marker next season he will be gone.

 

[eddy]

Mate the final say is already with Moshiri, you don't become that succesful in business then lay out 80-100m buying something to let the person continue running it as before, especially when how it was being run poorly is one of the big attractions you saw in the thing in the first place, he will be hands on from day one with this

Agree with this. It is a structered buy out, a handover, it welcomes change over a period of time to allow for all to adjust.
Mosh will keep his side of the deal, investment and bill will keep his relinquish his shares. He was always looking for the right buyer and investment and now he has it.
I am thinking Moshiri will stamp his authority as major shareholder by acting quickly re the manager situ, he probably has someone in mind.
This combined with investment would surely encourage players to stay, why leave when you have major investment for players, ground, and hopefully a manager who can take us forward.
Without Lukaku we would be in a relegation battle, facts are the facts, Mosh knows this

 

[hktoffee]

Spurs have spent loads of money on that squad...

Not under Poch, but don't kid yourself that Spurs haven't spent more than us. They have. A lot of it was just done before Poch got there.

Lamela - £30mil
Eriksen - £12mil
Dembele - £15mil
Vertonghen - £12mil
Alderweireld - £10mil
Alli - £2mil
Dier - £4mil
Chadli - £10mil
Lloris - £10mil

The above adds up to near enough £100mil in the last 2 and a half seasons...

They also spent loads on the likes of Capoue, Paulinho and Soldado etc...

Granted but what I mean is their net spend. They were able to sell their deadwood at good prices and covered most of the fees they spent. Kindly correct me if I am wrong on this mate.

 

[McBain]

He has to think of the children, won't somebody think about the children.

Erm.

We should all support a team called Everton and stop pretending we know whats going on at all.

I mean, look at all this guff. Does anyone actually know anything? Nope. It's BAWK.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

Erm.

We should all support a team called Everton and stop pretending we know whats going on at all.

I mean, look at all this guff. Does anyone actually know anything? Nope. It's BAWK.

This plotters and cult [Poor language removed] is doing my head in. All for constructive debates but when it descends into that its just pathetic.

 

[Lanolin]

No, you can't say that he is nowhere near Prem quality.

He shouldn't have been put on in that situation - out of position when down to 10 men - and that's the manager's error.

And again, why was it crazy not to give him more game time vs Villa? That's obviously the plan to build up his game time game by game. The amount of time he had against Villa was fine.

I disagree. The amount of game time he got in the Villa game directly contributed to him getting longer in a much less suitable situation at the weekend in my opinion.

Had he got 20 minutes against Villa he may a) have been more aware of what was required of him against West Ham, or b) shown himself to be currently unable to impact a premier league game and therefore been left out. I said it at the time and i'll say it again, there was never going to be a better chance to give the lad a decent run out than that Villa game. Instead we left Lennon and Lukaku on for 90 minutes, and then complained that they were too tired to complete the next game. Wonderful stuff.

 

[davek]

sentiment ,and a person to show him around the place and settle in

I doubt Kenwright would sign up to a new era if immediately he had a major football related decision taken out of his hands and was shown up - in a very obvious way - to be a rich man's pawn. Getting shut of an Everton manager who get's us even to midtable and progresses in the cups would be so out of step with what Kenwright would normally do, it'd be a slap in the face and he'd know we all knew it wasn't his call.

All that ^^^ by the way assumes that Moshiri will want rid anyway, and we have no indication that's his wishes. He hasn't put penny one in the club so far. If he invests heavily then failure occurs I'd expect action only after that.

 

[Ashtonian]

No I'm holding Lukaku accountable for not scoring that penalty. Who else can you blame?

I'm not blaming him for losing the game at all or us losing more games. I'm saying as good as he's been he's been a part of a team (key word) that is underachieving - some of that down to the manager and some of that down to the players and sometimes other factors as well.

He's done his duty this season but I can guarantee you he will be disappointed he hasn't scored more.

No player is immune from blame. I love Rom and he's the best player we've had at this club in donkeys, but still not immune.

Yeh we've drawn way too many, I'm not saying we haven't. As good as Rom has been though he is also part of that. Think how many chances he's missed as well as put away that would have seen us pick up more points - Norwich and Swansea and Palace spring to mind?

exactly what you just said mate. You don't blame the striker yet you include him? Makes no difference if he is smashing goal scoring records for us this year, you hold him accountable for not turning those draws you mentioned into wins. So how many do you expect him to score? He has scored one less than the striker at the top of the league, one more than the striker that is second in the league. Would you be happy if he scored every week then? I mean he score dffor 8/9 weeks in a run as well, first everton striker to do that in god knows how long.

As i said lukaku carries no blame or even suspicion this year, he has more than done his job for the team and that sort of return should have us challenging for the league title, only one reason why we aren't even close to that.

And to the point i'm trying to make, this all shows the straws clutched at by anyone, including yourself, when defending martinez, that is how it all sounds. Ignores his entire premier league career so far, ignores all the bad results, ignores the fact this all happened a year ago as well, it ignores the same things happening over and over again, because you all believe that here is a chance all of this is going to change and we will become great. Even to the point of even hinting that the best striker since lineker here has any part to play in all of this.

We shouldn't have to settle for martinez, so why should we?

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

I agree with this, but personally I think the away defending is more down to how we play as the away team. We seem to be better defensively when we don’t have as much of the ball, because it means as a team we have more numbers in the defensive third. I honestly don’t think we are organised any better, we just have more people there, meaning less space for the opposition. Away from home when we gain possession we have power and pace to hit teams on the counter. We are excellent at this due to the players we have.


At home or in games when we enjoy more of the ball, we tend to play ourselves in to trouble. We don’t have as many people in our defensive third, as we move up with the ball we then tend to commit too many players forward and leave ourselves man for man at the back. Teams can then counter on us. It doesn’t mean they will always score directly from the counter but it does mean they can gain possession and quickly progress to more dangerous areas, or they will have time and space due to us not really pressing the ball as a team to pick out a good pass or cross. For a team with 2 players who are defensively minded in the midfield it’s crazy that we can look so open in games.


I said this in Martinez’ first season, for his system to work defensively, you would need players with an exceptional work-rate, mobility, and tactical discipline right throughout the midfield and full back areas. We just don’t have that in those positions, Barry doesn’t have the mobility to cover for the fullbacks when they push so high and McCarthy doesn’t have the tactical discipline. Besic offers a lot of those qualities to be fair, but Barkley is all but redundant when we don’t have the ball.


Lennon has all of those qualities to be fair and that’s why he appears to be so important to Everton. He almost does the work of two men. This was very evident on Saturday. I think it’s kind of counter-productive though, because we’re almost sacrificing a creative wide position for a wide player’s defensive work-rate. I think this is also why Everton seem to just die at the end of games, players would need to be super fit to do what’s being asked and quite frankly they’re not. Look at the Spurs side and how hard they work and how fit they look. Unfortunately now, it’s got to the point when once we concede near the end everyone (fans and players included) just seem to know that we’re going to concede more. They have no faith in the system or themselves to see it through.


I’ve argued before about game management, once we take the lead in games, if we just reigned the full backs in and restricted their runs, then it’d put far less pressure on the midfield, and we’d be able to crowd certain areas of the pitch like we can in away games. It wouldn’t be defensive like parking the bus, it’s just playing smart and restricting the space for the opposition, and with the players Everton have on the counter, we’d probably be more dangerous than we are when we’re passing the ball around in the final third.

Good post

 

[Furey1878]

Granted but what I mean is their net spend. They were able to sell their deadwood at good prices and covered most of the fees they spent. Kindly correct me if I am wrong on this mate.

Their net spend is mostly covered by selling Bale for 100 mil, mate.

Granted Spurs usually sell their players at a good price for them, but even so the Bale transfer does skew the numbers somewhat.

 

[BlueToff]

Granted but what I mean is their net spend. They were able to sell their deadwood at good prices and covered most of the fees they spent. Kindly correct me if I am wrong on this mate.

Our net spend under RM isn't bad at all - in fact I'd wager it's less than Spurs' or around the same...

 

[McBain]

This plotters and cult [Poor language removed] is doing my head in. All for constructive debates but when it descends into that its just pathetic.

You and me both mate. The amount of dead set wham chatted on here has gone through the roof and the snidey politics of it ... lets just say I never thought usually sound posters would plumb these depths.