Roberto Martinez discussion

[BlueToff]

Oh aye, I'll give him that one.

Still though, doing the business in the lower leagues is not an indicator of being a success at this level.

Hmm well he did get them up playing a style and everything mate that a lot of managers then maintained and had success with.

I suppose that leans towards the argument that fundamentally Martinez is the right man to set in place a system throughout a club that eventually leaves to (relative) success, but that he may not be the man who sees it through to fruition.

E.g. Rodgers was the one that got Swansea promoted into the Prem and Souza the one before that who established them in the Championship.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

But it's not about Europe? It's about the fact that he won a cup with the club in the Prem with the smallest budget and smallest fanbase and a cup that Wigan may not win again in their history.

They can always have a better chance of getting promotion back to the Prem mate but the FA Cup is something special.

But yeh I agree on the balance - and it's the same for both sides of the argument.

This time last week I was firmly behind RM. Saturday annoyed me greatly because he conspired to mess it up (or at least played a large factor in it), and I'm now not as behind him as I was, but still think he should get until the end of the season before being fully judged.

Yeah he did win it - am not trying to dampen that achievement. I am merely saying he also over seen them get relegated. the balance to winning the cup is that the team got relegated and while that cup win cannot be taken away form wigan - the fans that i know (and working in haydock i know a lot of them) would rather be playing in the premier league.

Thats not my opinion, thats the fans i work with - probably 30 of them. Does the cup win make him a cup manager?

 

[bluestevon]

Well, we can all play the 'last seven seasons' for this and 'last three seasons' for that game and make a point of sorts. Fundamentally we are a middling PL club - nowhere near the elite, but nowhere near relegation fodder. Right slap bang in the middle on a sliding scal that goes from 6th or 7th to 10th/11th.

We have a reasonable but average type of spend and we tread water for the most part. I mean, if that isn't true, why is there excitement about the Moshiri deal taking us to the next level?



You see, this is why I cant take these attacks on Martinez seriously. Even a season that saw him smash through our PL points total record by 7 clear points you find room to attempt to belittle it. It's just nonsensical as an argument to try and unpick that season and say it fell short - Martinez squeezed that season dry and got a total that in many other seasons was a CL spot nailed on.

Maybe you wont see it as an achievement, but more level heads unaffected by forum fever will.



More style than substance. The feller's built a PL club from ashes and put the most prestigious domestic cup in world football in a trophy cabinet belonging to a gang of pie eaters. Maybe that's not substantial enough and we should have one of the new flavours in who had half a good PL season or managed a team in the white heat of the Eridivise or Ligue 1.

Considering 96% of your argument in defence of martinez is centred around 'the 72 point wonderful achievement season' dave isn't that a little hypocritical of you critising someone else using past seasons performance as a yardstick?

The excitement around the Moshiri takeover taking us to the next level is people hoping it will take us from the level we had been at - ie around the spurs level up and to distance ourselves from the pack of teams that has customarily been 'middle of the pack' in the true sense of the word and that are now alarmingly above us - and for us to being able to challenge the level above that - the Arsenal level if you will, ofc the last two seasons has seen spurs and us move a huge distance apart from the customary 1 or 2 place difference either way we have had for a long time with them, the difference between Martinez and pochettino shall we call as being the chief reason that gulf has happened?

Dave when will you realsie that a points total achieved in one season only matters in terms of where it gets you finishing in that season, who cares if 72 would have finished us in 4th a lot of seasons - they where different seasons with different strength of teams, christ mate it's like the rs saying that their points total for the 2013/14 season when they came second would have won them the league in 2010/11, 2002/2003 or 2000/2001 - simple fact - they didn't so it doesn't matter one little bit what they got, they came second, we came 5th not 4th and so fantastic we got 72 points - but what did that actually matter, spurs also got 69 points in that season as well btw - just 3 short of their record ever total in the prem - they sacked their manager that summer and hired a much better one. Said repeatedly to you as well AVB got a club record 72 points with Spurs mate - didn't see Spurs fans tearing their hair out when he left them though

Also you alarmingly don't ever vgive Moyes a huge amount of credit for that aberration of a points total do you? Can vault my past opinions of Moyes and you will see i hated the bloke, but even i can admit that Martinez sucess can now be judged by his track record before and after that first season to have hugely beneffited from the Moyes fitness and discipline instilled in the players, something that has now completely been eroded

Built a club from the ahses - assume you mean Swansea - yeah he did a very good job putting in a style of football and system in place their - and a few managers afterward came along and improved the teams performance and got them to where martinez failed to do - promoted to the prem, and they kept them their as well - something martinez ultimatley yet again failed to do, so in many ways Martinez at Swansea did what on the continent they would hire a director of football to do - and frankly mate that is what he would be best suited to, implement a system and stlye of play, bring playert sin and then leave the job of managing them to someone who actually is a better manager than he has shown himself plainly to be.

Alex McCleish also got the FA Cup for a smiliarly crap Birmingham side mate, can list a fair few other managers who will hardly be lauded in years to come for being great managers. Ultimately his job was to keep Wigan in the league and he failed to do so, you really reckon that clubs at the bottom hire managers with the remit of 'get us a cup and we don't mind going down' or do you think they hire saying 'keep us in the league at all costs'?

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

You see, this is why I cant take these attacks on Martinez seriously. Even a season that saw him smash through our PL points total record by 7 clear points you find room to attempt to belittle it.

Are we living in the here & now, or two seasons ago?

And have you ever heard of 'New Manager Syndrome'? The 'honeymoon period' ended that season.

Even George Burley managed 5th ffs.

 

[bluestevon]

But it's not about Europe? It's about the fact that he won a cup with the club in the Prem with the smallest budget and smallest fanbase and a cup that Wigan may not win again in their history.

They can always have a better chance of getting promotion back to the Prem mate but the FA Cup is something special.

But yeh I agree on the balance - and it's the same for both sides of the argument.

This time last week I was firmly behind RM. Saturday annoyed me greatly because he conspired to mess it up (or at least played a large factor in it), and I'm now not as behind him as I was, but still think he should get until the end of the season before being fully judged.

Using a comparitive argument, would you take a CL trophy for us if it meant we went down mate?

We have never done anythign in that tournament so for us it would be an absolutely massive once in a lifetime thing and well we can always go back up again to the prem in however many years time?

Thats the same argument really as we use to say for Wigan it was worth it really

 

[bluestevon]

Hmm well he did get them up playing a style and everything mate that a lot of managers then maintained and had success with.

I suppose that leans towards the argument that fundamentally Martinez is the right man to set in place a system throughout a club that eventually leaves to (relative) success, but that he may not be the man who sees it through to fruition.

E.g. Rodgers was the one that got Swansea promoted into the Prem and Souza the one before that who established them in the Championship.

In a nutshell mate you have said without saying what i posted just before, Martinez is by nature a director of football in the European style, and he'd do really well in such a role as it removes him from the things he is terrible at - in game decisions and training the squad in all facets of the game like they need to be.

 

[Goat]

You all realise Martinez doesnt scout the players, right?

So its not like we can give him "credit" for signing all these players, the scouting staff gain that credit, he signed Kone after watching him for 12months, thats how well he can judge a player.

So its not as if hes any use to use as a Director of Football, he has 1 job, to win football matches, to get the squad in a position to win football matches, a job he is failing in.

Just saying.

 

[Ashtonian]

Well, we can all play the 'last seven seasons' for this and 'last three seasons' for that game and make a point of sorts. Fundamentally we are a middling PL club - nowhere near the elite, but nowhere near relegation fodder. Right slap bang in the middle on a sliding scal that goes from 6th or 7th to 10th/11th.

We have a reasonable but average type of spend and we tread water for the most part. I mean, if that isn't true, why is there excitement about the Moshiri deal taking us to the next level?



You see, this is why I cant take these attacks on Martinez seriously. Even a season that saw him smash through our PL points total record by 7 clear points you find room to attempt to belittle it. It's just nonsensical as an argument to try and unpick that season and say it fell short - Martinez squeezed that season dry and got a total that in many other seasons was a CL spot nailed on.

Maybe you wont see it as an achievement, but more level heads unaffected by forum fever will.



More style than substance. The feller's built a PL club from ashes and put the most prestigious domestic cup in world football in a trophy cabinet belonging to a gang of pie eaters. Maybe that's not substantial enough and we should have one of the new flavours in who had half a good PL season or managed a team in the white heat of the Eridivise or Ligue 1.

Think that is the best line i have read from you mate.

'built a premier league club from the ashes'

which part mate? The part where he dropped down the league with Wigan or the part where he relegated them? The premier league club he built is now in league one after he stripped their assets when he moved on and the new manager couldn't sort out the mess that had been left there.

Paul Jewell, took them up, kept them up. Steve Bruce, took them mid table. Martinez got them relegated.

Least if you want to ride your high horse mate try to make sure it isn't lame to begin with.

Oh and he did win the FA cup mate, that puts him on par with....Harry Redknapp, want him managing us?

 

[Efcjake]

Considering 96% of your argument in defence of martinez is centred around 'the 72 point wonderful achievement season' dave isn't that a little hypocritical of you critising someone else using past seasons performance as a yardstick?

The excitement around the Moshiri takeover taking us to the next level is people hoping it will take us from the level we had been at - ie around the spurs level up and to distance ourselves from the pack of teams that has customarily been 'middle of the pack' in the true sense of the word and that are now alarmingly above us - and for us to being able to challenge the level above that - the Arsenal level if you will, ofc the last two seasons has seen spurs and us move a huge distance apart from the customary 1 or 2 place difference either way we have had for a long time with them, the difference between Martinez and pochettino shall we call as being the chief reason that gulf has happened?

Dave when will you realsie that a points total achieved in one season only matters in terms of where it gets you finishing in that season, who cares if 72 would have finished us in 4th a lot of seasons - they where different seasons with different strength of teams, christ mate it's like the rs saying that their points total for the 2013/14 season when they came second would have won them the league in 2010/11, 2002/2003 or 2000/2001 - simple fact - they didn't so it doesn't matter one little bit what they got, they came second, we came 5th not 4th and so fantastic we got 72 points - but what did that actually matter, spurs also got 69 points in that season as well btw - just 3 short of their record ever total in the prem - they sacked their manager that summer and hired a much better one. Said repeatedly to you as well AVB got a club record 72 points with Spurs mate - didn't see Spurs fans tearing their hair out when he left them though

Also you alarmingly don't ever vgive Moyes a huge amount of credit for that aberration of a points total do you? Can vault my past opinions of Moyes and you will see i hated the bloke, but even i can admit that Martinez sucess can now be judged by his track record before and after that first season to have hugely beneffited from the Moyes fitness and discipline instilled in the players, something that has now completely been eroded

Built a club from the ahses - assume you mean Swansea - yeah he did a very good job putting in a style of football and system in place their - and a few managers afterward came along and improved the teams performance and got them to where martinez failed to do - promoted to the prem, and they kept them their as well - something martinez ultimatley yet again failed to do, so in many ways Martinez at Swansea did what on the continent they would hire a director of football to do - and frankly mate that is what he would be best suited to, implement a system and stlye of play, bring playert sin and then leave the job of managing them to someone who actually is a better manager than he has shown himself plainly to be.

Alex McCleish also got the FA Cup for a smiliarly crap Birmingham side mate, can list a fair few other managers who will hardly be lauded in years to come for being great managers. Ultimately his job was to keep Wigan in the league and he failed to do so, you really reckon that clubs at the bottom hire managers with the remit of 'get us a cup and we don't mind going down' or do you think they hire saying 'keep us in the league at all costs'?

Keep it coming lads, making for some good reading this debate.

 

[Ashtonian]

But it's not about Europe? It's about the fact that he won a cup with the club in the Prem with the smallest budget and smallest fanbase and a cup that Wigan may not win again in their history.

They can always have a better chance of getting promotion back to the Prem mate but the FA Cup is something special.

But yeh I agree on the balance - and it's the same for both sides of the argument.

This time last week I was firmly behind RM. Saturday annoyed me greatly because he conspired to mess it up (or at least played a large factor in it), and I'm now not as behind him as I was, but still think he should get until the end of the season before being fully judged.

All the F.A cup does is put him on par with Harry Redknapp, and at least Harry had an excuse to get relegated, Martinez one was self inflicted.

 

[Groucho]

Paul Jewell, took them up, kept them up. Steve Bruce, took them mid table. Martinez got them relegated.

This is hard to argue with, although it should be remembered that Dave Whelan (who it's rarely mentioned broke his leg in a final once) was cutting his spending during Martinez's time there IIRC.

 

[davek]

And for balance to this - overseen them getting relegated.... not all rosy, wonder which one the Wigan fans would prefer now.

He allowed them to have a day in the glare of the world's media after a lifetime of anonymity and crushing boredom walking their whippets down the park and stuffing their grids with babbies head chip dinners.

Those hillbillies should erect a statue to him never mind ponder whether it was all worthwhile.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

He allowed them to have a day in the glare of the world's media after a lifetime of anonymity and crushing boredom walking their whippets down the park and stuffing their grids with babbies head chip dinners.

Those hillbillies should erect a statue to him never mind ponder whether it was all worthwhile.

You'd be surprised to be honest mate - a lot of the fans i work with say they are surprised he got this long without people working out he is stubborn and has holes in his skill set. I was quite shocked to hear that i thought he would be seen as a god to them. Evidently not.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Considering 96% of your argument in defence of martinez is centred around 'the 72 point wonderful achievement season' dave isn't that a little hypocritical of you critising someone else using past seasons performance as a yardstick?

The excitement around the Moshiri takeover taking us to the next level is people hoping it will take us from the level we had been at - ie around the spurs level up and to distance ourselves from the pack of teams that has customarily been 'middle of the pack' in the true sense of the word and that are now alarmingly above us - and for us to being able to challenge the level above that - the Arsenal level if you will, ofc the last two seasons has seen spurs and us move a huge distance apart from the customary 1 or 2 place difference either way we have had for a long time with them, the difference between Martinez and pochettino shall we call as being the chief reason that gulf has happened?

Dave when will you realsie that a points total achieved in one season only matters in terms of where it gets you finishing in that season, who cares if 72 would have finished us in 4th a lot of seasons - they where different seasons with different strength of teams, christ mate it's like the rs saying that their points total for the 2013/14 season when they came second would have won them the league in 2010/11, 2002/2003 or 2000/2001 - simple fact - they didn't so it doesn't matter one little bit what they got, they came second, we came 5th not 4th and so fantastic we got 72 points - but what did that actually matter, spurs also got 69 points in that season as well btw - just 3 short of their record ever total in the prem - they sacked their manager that summer and hired a much better one. Said repeatedly to you as well AVB got a club record 72 points with Spurs mate - didn't see Spurs fans tearing their hair out when he left them though

Also you alarmingly don't ever vgive Moyes a huge amount of credit for that aberration of a points total do you? Can vault my past opinions of Moyes and you will see i hated the bloke, but even i can admit that Martinez sucess can now be judged by his track record before and after that first season to have hugely beneffited from the Moyes fitness and discipline instilled in the players, something that has now completely been eroded

Built a club from the ahses - assume you mean Swansea - yeah he did a very good job putting in a style of football and system in place their - and a few managers afterward came along and improved the teams performance and got them to where martinez failed to do - promoted to the prem, and they kept them their as well - something martinez ultimatley yet again failed to do, so in many ways Martinez at Swansea did what on the continent they would hire a director of football to do - and frankly mate that is what he would be best suited to, implement a system and stlye of play, bring playert sin and then leave the job of managing them to someone who actually is a better manager than he has shown himself plainly to be.

Alex McCleish also got the FA Cup for a smiliarly crap Birmingham side mate, can list a fair few other managers who will hardly be lauded in years to come for being great managers. Ultimately his job was to keep Wigan in the league and he failed to do so, you really reckon that clubs at the bottom hire managers with the remit of 'get us a cup and we don't mind going down' or do you think they hire saying 'keep us in the league at all costs'?

Dave's '72 point' trophy, ignores the now patently obvious fact, that Martinez inherited a very good side, that were defensively well drilled and very tough to beat.

He added some flair that season and the combination of the defensive solidity - that was his predecessors doing - and the addition of the 20 goal per season striker that Moyes could only ever dream about, resulted in the perfect balance, and we could (and should) have nailed top 4 that season. Martinez deserved the credit for being the man at the helm though, no problem with that.

However, his failure to work on the defensive side of the game with the same level of intensity that those players were used to, eventually started to tell. Season 2, was a complete disaster. We started shipping goals and the confidence was soon shot, when trying to get a side to play a tiki taka style it requires confidence to carry it off, and we looked a complete shambles - and at risk of being dragged into a relegation scrap at the turn of the year.

This season we've been more direct, but still a complete mess at the back.

What's disappointed me most about him, is that he's not revisited season 1 - and realised that we need to regain that level of defensive strength if we're going to be successful in this league. Many of us were saying months ago that he needed to bring in a defensive coach to drill the backline and sort out an area where we are so obviously falling short, and it's patently not his forte - as his CV attests.

 

[davek]

...Bit let down here by your response davek.

We're a middling club, but recent trends indicate us slipping further down.

I agree that nobody can take the best points finish in the prem away from him, but as the saying goes, "What have you done for me lately?". I'm not entirely convinced that was all Martinez' doing, and if you were then you should be criticising him for his failures presently as freely as you are to praise him for his work two seasons ago. He can't take the plaudits when we're successful but then be held up on a pillar when we aren't.

Oh aye yeah. It was Moyes 72 points...pity he could never achieve it while he was still here like. Maybe he didn't try hard enough?

EH?? Which club are you talking about there?

Swansea. Martinez laid down the stylistic change and got the promotion ball rolling; the next two kept it rolling to its end goal.

No one seriously disputes that.