Roberto Martinez discussion

[Efcjake]

Oh aye yeah. It was Moyes 72 points...pity he could never achieve it while he was still here like. Maybe he didn't try hard enough?


Swansea. Martinez laid down the stylistic change and got the promotion ball rolling; the next two kept it rolling to its end goal.

No one seriously disputes that.

So is the reason we have been so disappointing for 18 months because Martinez isn't trying hard enough now?

If we're only going to judge managers based on their most successful season then is Moyes better because he got us further up the table? Albeit with less points.

What about the stylistic change Martinez implemented at Wigan that got the ball rolling all the way to the Championship?

You're not exactly looking at both sides of the coin here.

 

[davek]

Dave's '72 point' trophy, ignores the now patently obvious fact, that Martinez inherited a very good side, that were defensively well drilled and very tough to beat.

He added some flair that season and the combination of the defensive solidity - that was his predecessors doing - and the addition of the 20 goal per season striker that Moyes could only ever dream about, resulted in the perfect balance, and we could (and should) have nailed top 4 that season. Martinez deserved the credit for being the man at the helm though, no problem with that.

However, his failure to work on the defensive side of the game with the same level of intensity that those players were used to, eventually started to tell. Season 2, was a complete disaster. We started shipping goals and the confidence was soon shot, when trying to get a side to play a tiki taka style it requires confidence to carry it off, and we looked a complete shambles - and at risk of being dragged into a relegation scrap at the turn of the year.

This season we've been more direct, but still a complete mess at the back.

What's disappointed me most about him, is that he's not revisited season 1 - and realised that we need to regain that level of defensive strength if we're going to be successful in this league. Many of us were saying months ago that he needed to bring in a defensive coach to drill the backline and sort out an area where we are so obviously falling short, and it's patently not his forte - as his CV attests.

Nonsense. There's no problem with defensive solidity when we went 12 games conceding 8 goals. Where was that analysis then? That's why your point cant be taken seriously. Either be consistent and argue that case when we go through a period of tightness at the back or never use it as an argument.

Saturday's fiasco seems to have brought this back on the front burner again for the first time in about three months. And what happened there? With 10 minutes left those players had defended well enough. The last few minutes they panicked after we got pegged back to 2-1 and their arses went. Nothing to do with a manager when those cowards fail to hold their nerve. He's got a bunch of jelly fish there and needs to add some steel and leadership asap. That will be added in the summer and then we'll see no more of this cowardice in the line of fire.

 

[Groucho]

He allowed them to have a day in the glare of the world's media after a lifetime of anonymity and crushing boredom walking their whippets down the park and stuffing their grids with babbies head chip dinners.

Those hillbillies should erect a statue to him never mind ponder whether it was all worthwhile.

However, what's good enough for Wigan may not be good enough for us. For example, a cup win and relegation would be a disaster for us.


And don't forget Wigan makes Uncle Joes Mintballs......

 

[Blue Cheese]

Where did you expect we would finish this season?

I thought between 4th and 8th if I'm honest. The start we made had my hopes up but it's just become a nightmare. Given how the season has panned out it is a massive opportunity lost but we all know that.

Let's hope for a strong finish but for me now Martinez is not the one to take us forward.

It's the way in which our season has unfolded that has me changing my mind, even if we get top 8 which is still possible, to many mistakes repeatedly.

 

[Ashtonian]

This is hard to argue with, although it should be remembered that Dave Whelan (who it's rarely mentioned broke his leg in a final once) was cutting his spending during Martinez's time there IIRC.

True, he did get money to invest though, and did sign a lot of his own players there. Granted his wage budget was smaller but as his words said, he sold one player, and signed 3 players in return.

Compare that to say Paul lambert who Villa had previously been shopping in Roma and the like before Lambert was ordered to suddenly start signing unknowns and championship players, that is a good example of a significant budget cut. Martinez at least had some scope to bring players in, including our very own Robles / kone / McCarthey / Alcaraz who were all deemed to one level or another, to be good enough to pull on our shirt.

 

[davek]

Davek, seems to me that level headed here means that they agree with you. When you say that there isn't a significant difference between finishing 6th and 11th, it looks like you've lost it. 6th is a) top half, b) worth 4 million more in prize money, c) within grasp of european spots. I don't want to compare to Moyes, rather compare where we stand now to where we were before RM. Despite some very promising players and exciting football, we have gone backwards with Martinez at the helm. Despite having a whole team of international footballers and some of the most promising young talent in Europe at his disposal Martinz has managed to have the worst defensive record in the league, hell in Europe. I don't understand how one 5th place finish with record points has bought him this much loyalty from you. He has bottled every important match for this club to date and when we lose on the back of another brilliant performance with 10 minutes of capitulation, I expect to see him gone.

6th is nowhere. In fact it's worse than finishing 12th, at least with the latter you dont get the kick in the balls consolation prize of a EL campaign.

 

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

Slaven Bilic said; If they scored a penalty, we could have lost three or four nil.

Yeah because

Oh aye yeah. It was Moyes 72 points...pity he could never achieve it while he was still here like. Maybe he didn't try hard enough?

Well he did achieve 4th which is better than Martinez's 72 points.

 

[Skeleton Crew]

So can we hit the lab and splice Martinez and Moyes then?

have a super RobertoMoyes frankencoach. Not only will we get 72 points we will never give up a goal winning every game 3-0

 

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

6th is nowhere. In fact it's worse than finishing 12th, at least with the latter you dont get the kick in the balls consolation prize of a EL campaign.

Oh my god. What a shocker.

Yeah, Everton playing in Europe is a bad thing. Jesus wept.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Nonsense. There's no problem with defensive solidity when we went 12 games conceding 8 goals. Where was that analysis then? That's why your point cant be taken seriously. Either be consistent and argue that case when we go through a period of tightness at the back or never use it as an argument.

Saturday's fiasco seems to have brought this back on the front burner again for the first time in about three months. And what happened there? With 10 minutes left those players had defended well enough. The last few minutes they panicked after we got pegged back to 2-1 and their arses went. Nothing to do with a manager when those cowards fail to hold their nerve. He's got a bunch of jelly fish there and needs to add some steel and leadership asap. That will be added in the summer and then we'll see no more of this cowardice in the line of fire.

Taking selective periods during the season is avoiding the unfortunate reality of the complete picture Dave.

In the 2 seasons before he arrived we conceded 40 goals in the full season.

In season 1 of his tenure we conceded 39

Season 2 - 50

This season - 39 with 10 games to go.

The 'jellyfish' who you're trying to blame, are largely the same 'jellyfish' who delivered a much better return in 3 seasons prior to the last one.....

Nothing to do with coaching or his tactics of course mate....just lily livered Jags I suppose......

 

[Saint Domingo]

What about if he lost the cup game but won every single league game left?

In the unlikely event this occurred and we won ten games on a row despite struggling to win two on the bounce for most of 2 years then yes it would cause a rethink. You can't ignore form like that. You can question it, Everton are brilliant at winning games when there is nothing to play for and they know the season's up. It might buy him a stay of execution I suppose if he rattled off ten in a row.

 

[Efcjake]

6th is nowhere. In fact it's worse than finishing 12th, at least with the latter you dont get the kick in the balls consolation prize of a EL campaign.

Ok, you're on a wind-up today.

 

[bluestevon]

Dave's '72 point' trophy, ignores the now patently obvious fact, that Martinez inherited a very good side, that were defensively well drilled and very tough to beat.

He added some flair that season and the combination of the defensive solidity - that was his predecessors doing - and the addition of the 20 goal per season striker that Moyes could only ever dream about, resulted in the perfect balance, and we could (and should) have nailed top 4 that season. Martinez deserved the credit for being the man at the helm though, no problem with that.

However, his failure to work on the defensive side of the game with the same level of intensity that those players were used to, eventually started to tell. Season 2, was a complete disaster. We started shipping goals and the confidence was soon shot, when trying to get a side to play a tiki taka style it requires confidence to carry it off, and we looked a complete shambles - and at risk of being dragged into a relegation scrap at the turn of the year.

This season we've been more direct, but still a complete mess at the back.

What's disappointed me most about him, is that he's not revisited season 1 - and realised that we need to regain that level of defensive strength if we're going to be successful in this league. Many of us were saying months ago that he needed to bring in a defensive coach to drill the backline and sort out an area where we are so obviously falling short, and it's patently not his forte - as his CV attests.

Mate i am someone who never liked Moyes or wanted him from day 1, was glad he left when he finally did, but even I have to give him the credit in large part for that 1st martinez season, it's painfully obvious how much ht legacy of his training and regimen influenced that season

Does martinez deserve credit for taking it up to another level that season, ofc he does, huge amount of credit, but that doesn't erase the fact that from that point onwards he has been too blind to see why that first season worked so well.

He hasn't revisited it because plainly and simply he is incapable of objectively seing why it worked so well and the causes of it, he is utterly wedded to this ideal of football of his and anythign outside of that strict dogma is cast aside and ignored, the most infuriating thing is that the person who basically invented that style of play and made it popular has actually modified and changed his style when teams adjusted whilst the person trying to emulate him is stuck in the past - trying to recreate the barca team of 7-8 years ago without having the players, the coaches, or lets be honest the Managerial and coaching ability to pull even that off succesfully, meanwhilste the very system he is futiley trying to recreate has already become an outdated model. Kind of funny, kind of sad and kind of illustrates why he is the wrong man for this club

 

[Ashtonian]

6th is nowhere. In fact it's worse than finishing 12th, at least with the latter you dont get the kick in the balls consolation prize of a EL campaign.

that my friends is Dave in a nutshell.

the reason why he backs Martinez is because he is happy for the team to be crap and rot away in mid table while we lose all our best players.

Part of me is starting to think this unwavering loyalty is just the ultimate WUM agenda that has suckered so many of us all in over 2 years. No-one could stand by a manager this much and not be running some sort of agenda.

 

[Saint Domingo]

6th is nowhere. In fact it's worse than finishing 12th, at least with the latter you dont get the kick in the balls consolation prize of a EL campaign.

Dear me