Roberto Martinez discussion

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Saint Domingo said:
This has degenerated. The point is this is Martinez's squad now. He's responsible for it. If lineups last season were the oldest in the league then he made that choice. He chose to go with Etoo Alcaraz Kone Distin Barry and Howard over younger alternatives.
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Wno would you have instead of Martinez mate? As it looks slim pickings out there to me.
 
Saint Domingo said:
Let's look at the squad Moyes left though. The older players would have been (off the top of my head) Jagielka 30, Distin 35, Howard 32, Baines 28, Hibbert, Osman 30, Pienaar 31.

Give or take a year on a couple of those ages but in and of itself it's not that bad a group of old players to leave behind (bearing in mind Hibbert wasn't first choice). You can argue as well Moyes had replacements in mind, Stones was bought, Oviefo and Garbutt in place, Barkley starting to get more starts.

It's not his fault that 2 years later these players haven't been replaced. Osman and Pienaar succumbed to injury but not replaced, Howard's lost his reactions but not replaced, Distin has finally been replaced but Baines is now the wrong side of 30 like Jagielka (although both still good -for now). Martinez then supplemented this with Kone Etoo Barry and Alcaraz. It is a complete myth that he inherited an old squad. He inherited an experienced squad with a core of players coming towards the end of their prime. It is Martinez who added even older players to this and continued to rely too heavily on what should now be squad players. To his credit he's also bought young players but some of the stats last season about oldest outfield 11 are completely down to him and nothing to do with Moyes.
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There was also Neville and Hitzlesperger (both retired before Martinez came) plus Mucha who Martinez replaced with Robles. add in Heitinga is you are concerned about the ~30 year olds.

I agree it would be great to have at least backups for all our older players but even relatively unknown youngsters don't come that cheap that can fit straight into the first team - Besic, Galloway and Stones were all great buys but each was in the 3-4 m range.

How much extra would younger replacements for Kone/Eto'o/Barry/Alcaraz have been? We signed that lot for a combined 6m which is what we sold an injury prone Anichebe for.
 
ijjysmith said:
Wno would you have instead of Martinez mate? As it looks slim pickings out there to me.
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I'd give Martinez another season because 2 seasons is not enough for a manager but he needs to man up accept responsibility for last season and learn from it, not just think the first season will just appear by magic again.

As for replacements, I'd have Moyes back (don't care how much abuse that gets me, he was a good CB snd a top striker away from the top 4, we have that now), I'd take a punt on Howe, or Karanka, I'd give Koeman a go, then there's continentals like Tuchel Klopp Blanc (obviously not completely available or realistic but why not try). I'd give Rafael a go when he gets fired from Real (I like trophies more than petty RS squabbling). I'd probably even give Harry Redknapp a go. I know he's a clown but when he's been given decent players (like at Spurs) he cracked the top 4 twice. I'd also give Sheeds or Unsworth a go as well. Some of those names seem ridiculous or inexperienced but I think with the squad we have we'd do better than 11th with some of them.
 
Saint Domingo said:
I'd give Martinez another season because 2 seasons is not enough for a manager but he needs to man up accept responsibility for last season and learn from it, not just think the first season will just appear by magic again.

As for replacements, I'd have Moyes back (don't care how much abuse that gets me, he was a good CB snd a top striker away from the top 4, we have that now), I'd take a punt on Howe, or Karanka, I'd give Koeman a go, then there's continentals like Tuchel Klopp Blanc (obviously not completely available or realistic but why not try). I'd give Rafael a go when he gets fired from Real (I like trophies more than petty RS squabbling). I'd probably even give Harry Redknapp a go. I know he's a clown but when he's been given decent players (like at Spurs) he cracked the top 4 twice. I'd also give Sheeds or Unsworth a go as well. Some of those names seem ridiculous or inexperienced but I think with the squad we have we'd do better than 11th with some of them.
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Rafael? Rafael?
 

Stanley Parker said:
"So whilst he inherited an oldish squad he's half responsible for why it remains one." That's not quite the same as being solely responsible.

The previous season was extended by the World Cup competition. Players required a rest after it. Roberto wasn't responsible for that.

The selections for league matches were generally consistent. Older players found it difficult to recover from the midweek games. And rotation gave the younger players the opportunity to experience first team football.

Injuries and the limitations of the squad reduced the choice, especially in left midfield.

It wasn't necessarily the formations that didn't work. It was more the pace that the players played in the games. And players made individual mistakes too.
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The other teams in the league didn't seem to suffer with that issue.
 
I'd also like to add I don't want Martinez sacked, I think he will improve, and he will improve us, and I suspect he will mainly look at younger players this season, but as well as the black and white of the age range... over 30 and under 20, its worth noting that most of the team was and still is between 20 and 30, and as long as that continues it doesn't matter if we field a couple of 20 year olds learning their trade or a couple of 30+ year olds relying on their experience.

Stones, Coleman, McCarthy, Besic, Mirallas, Lukaku, Naismith, Baines, Jagielka, Oviedo, Gibson, McGeady, Osman, Barkley, Garbutt, Barry are likely to be the mainstay of our campaign next season.. that's ideal imo. The rest are superfluous fillers that will get a play here and there. I only have concerns over McGeady's quality and Osman and Barry's legs, and Gibsons ability to survive an entire half before his season is over.

Doesn't take much to fix that small list imo.

If we get Deulefeu, then all the better. Pace and youth. The rest can be youth players learning their trade, possibly see the likes of Pienaar, Hennen, Kone etc getting a couple of games here and there.

I think we are in good shape, anyone using excuses to absolve Martinez of the responsibility of taking that squad to at least challenge for a European spot is not open to reasoned debate imo.

Especially when its the transfer window right now. But I have the faith that he can do it and the Martinez fans should as well, why not, quality manager, quality team, no Europe, no excuses, money where your mouth is time.. lets have a season that's... well.. you know..phenomenal ;)
 
Saint Domingo said:
I'd give Martinez another season because 2 seasons is not enough for a manager but he needs to man up accept responsibility for last season and learn from it, not just think the first season will just appear by magic again.

As for replacements, I'd have Moyes back (don't care how much abuse that gets me, he was a good CB snd a top striker away from the top 4, we have that now), I'd take a punt on Howe, or Karanka, I'd give Koeman a go, then there's continentals like Tuchel Klopp Blanc (obviously not completely available or realistic but why not try). I'd give Rafael a go when he gets fired from Real (I like trophies more than petty RS squabbling). I'd probably even give Harry Redknapp a go. I know he's a clown but when he's been given decent players (like at Spurs) he cracked the top 4 twice. I'd also give Sheeds or Unsworth a go as well. Some of those names seem ridiculous or inexperienced but I think with the squad we have we'd do better than 11th with some of them.
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Agree with most that mate. Apart from the Rafael bit.....and redknapp bit.... No thanks!

I would rather Moyes over Martinez but most wouldn't with good reason too.
 

Ihaters said:
Stones, Coleman, McCarthy, Besic, Mirallas, Lukaku, Naismith, Baines, Jagielka, Oviedo, Gibson, McGeady, Osman, Barkley, Garbutt, Barry are likely to be the mainstay of our campaign next season.. that's ideal imo
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Liking the idea of doing without a goalkeeper, probably end with similar goals conceded and scoring more
 
Ihaters said:
I'd also like to add I don't want Martinez sacked, I think he will improve, and he will improve us, and I suspect he will mainly look at younger players this season, but as well as the black and white of the age range... over 30 and under 20, its worth noting that most of the team was and still is between 20 and 30, and as long as that continues it doesn't matter if we field a couple of 20 year olds learning their trade or a couple of 30+ year olds relying on their experience.
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I'd like to see Martinez play as young a tea as he possibly could and be given time to bring them through over the next few seasons. A few seasons at midtable might be the price to pay but would be worth it longterm.

Ihaters said:
Stones, Coleman, McCarthy, Besic, Mirallas, Lukaku, Naismith, Baines, Jagielka, Oviedo, Gibson, McGeady, Osman, Barkley, Garbutt, Barry are likely to be the mainstay of our campaign next season.. that's ideal imo. The rest are superfluous fillers that will get a play here and there. I only have concerns over McGeady's quality and Osman and Barry's legs, and Gibsons ability to survive an entire half before his season is over.
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They'll be bit part players or are on their way out, for whatever reason.

We should line up next season thus:

Howard
Coleman - Stones - Jagielka/new CB/Galloway - Baines
McCarthy Besic
Deulofeu/Lennon - Barkley/new playmaker - new playmaker/Cleverley
Lukaku

Bench:
Robles
new CB/Jagielka/Galloway
Barry
new playmaker/Cleverley
new playmaker/Barkley
Deulofeu/Lennon
Osman
Kone
 

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