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Roberto Martinez discussion

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davek said:
Ha Ha Ha. That's just a frightening misreading.



You brought Europe in and put it into a thread about Martinez. You said that, in comparison with Moyes having us 'fighting for Europe' Martinez got Wigan relegated...how is that not measuring Martinez by euro qualification standards!!

Moyes and 'success'. It isn't possible to contradict my view that Moyes never secured it. It's just not. Plain fact. It's a plain fact because 5th and 6th is not first, and runner up is not winner. He steadied the ship. Made us hard to beat. If you want to define success as those types of things, be my guest.
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He said/she said....
No you said Moyes set the bar really low. I said he had us consistently challenging for Europe. I said if Moyes was that bad, Martinez shouldn't have too much challenge to improve us. That somehow meant that Martinez has to qualify for Europe or I think he's s**t.

The reality is, if he's better than Moyes, he'll do better. But to do so is harder than you make out because Moyes isn't s**t. If anything I am fighting the corner for Martinez by giving him more leeway for success than you are because I think Moyes did a vastly better job than you do.
And yes Martinez did win the cup which is ace.

Now then I don't want this to get into a Moyes thread as he has gone but whilst he hasn't won anything, he has acheived plenty in his time here.

What he has acheived is the total transformation of Everton from whipping boys to feared opponents, from an easy 3 points, to a probable defeat against us, set against the backdrop of massive financial inequality.
That is an achieivement worthy of any manager and personally I want a squad worthy of pride and prefer being Everton over Wigan in terms of quality...

For me, the two managers may not be so different, one game and one position separates them in terms of best cup and worst league.
Best cup - Moyes didn't win his final, Martinez did.
Worst league - Moyes finished 17th avoided relegation, Martinez 18th and got relegated.
Of course with the extra money the other results become more separated, Moyes being the first ever to breach the top 4 for example.

Overall though this debate has become pointless, you think Martinez is better than Moyes, and that Moyes is s**t, but that there is no reason with the same squad and more money (tv deal), Martinez shouldn't do better. Doesn't add up to me.

I am done on this, you carry on, pull it apart, tell me I said Martinez must win every bit of silverware or he's a waster, I think most here see what's what and where we stand.
Martinez is a good choice but has had his bad times, I hope he'll be great, i'll reserve judgement. You keep that open mind of yours though Davek and don't let anyone say anything negative about him..
 
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Foot Long Hot Dog said:
I'll be interested to see whether Dave measures Martinez by the same yardstick by which he's (totally incorrectly) chosen to use, to classify Moyes tenure as nothing more than "ship steadying".
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But that's just it, I'm not expecting Martinez to be a success. And it doesn't logically follow that I would if I deny Moyes the title of being 'successful' at Everton...it's just a questioning of the mad PR exercise conducted over years to convince us that Moyes was a success. I'm saying that Martinez shouldn't have to labour under any weight of expectation about achieving success when his predecessor couldn't secure it for the previous 11 years...and he couldn't achieve it largely due to matters off the pitch that Martinez now inherits.

I expect Ma\rtinez to be a different manager with a different mentality who should, in time, reproduce the same league performance as Moyes and probably do much better in cups where you need to be more bold.
 
Ihaters said:
He said/she said....
No you said Moyes set the bar really low. I said he had us consistently challenging for Europe. I said if Moyes was that bad, Martinez shouldn't have too much challenge to improve us. That somehow meant that Martinez has to qualify for Europe or I think he's s**t.

The reality is, if he's better than Moyes, he'll do better. But to do so is harder than you make out because Moyes isn't s**t. If anything I am fighting the corner for Martinez by giving him more leeway for success than you are because I think Moyes did a vastly better job than you do.
And yes Martinez did win the cup which is ace.

Now then I don't want this to get into a Moyes thread as he has gone but whilst he hasn't won anything, he has acheived plenty in his time here.

What he has acheived is the total transformation of Everton from whipping boys to feared opponents, from an easy 3 points, to a probable defeat against us, set against the backdrop of massive financial inequality.
That is an achieivement worthy of any manager and personally I want a squad worthy of pride and prefer being Everton over Wigan in terms of quality...

For me, the two managers may not be so different, one game and one position separates them in terms of best cup and worst league.
Best cup - Moyes didn't win his final, Martinez did.
Worst league - Moyes finished 17th avoided relegation, Martinez 18th and got relegated.
Of course with the extra money the other results become more separated, Moyes being the first ever to breach the top 4 for example.

Overall though this debate has become pointless, you think Martinez is better than Moyes, and that Moyes is s**t, but that there is no reason with the same squad and more money (tv deal), Martinez shouldn't do better. Doesn't add up to me.

I am done on this, you carry on, pull it apart, tell me I said Martinez must win every bit of silverware or he's a waster, I think most here see what's what and where we stand.
Martinez is a good choice but has had his bad times, I hope he'll be great, i'll reserve judgement. You keep that open mind of yours though Davek and don't let anyone say anything negative about him..
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Well, I'm glad we're agreeing to replace the word 'success' with 'achievement'. That's much more negotiable.
 

Unfortunately we don't have a choice here. After Vitor Pereira's decision for oil money is in the news, we all know that there isn't much decent choices beside Martinez.

I can see people asking for Neil Lennon or Malky Mackay, but these kind of managers is exactly the kind to nail you in perpetual mid table.
 
Brennan said:
Your wit knows no bounds.
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images
 

We have to try to be fair, and by that I mean to the situation.

For me, the support is a spectrum of delight and despair with every shade in between, as it has always been and will forever be.
Regarding the masks, we need to analyse the timing. When Smith finally went we were woeful, Moyes came in and utilized a surgeons mask because that is what we needed - life saving surgery. I have no doubt that Moyes saved us as a club, we were fast becoming odds on relegation fodder. Compare that time to now.
The appointment of Martinez for me is somewhat underwhelming, but that isnt necessarily his fault, up to 88 mph and back to the Smith era and I'd have been as happy to have given him a go as I was Moyes - literally anything...anyone would do.
Martinez steps in at a club that has become used to finishing in the top third of the league every season - that has numerous internationals in its starting eleven - some of which are England starters. It was easier for Moyes to turn us from poor to average to then above average to then almost top four than it will be for Martinez to move us on from where we stand (or stood) when Moyes was manager. In this opening season I will be very happy to tread water and maintain our standing and get sixth again - not many managers work miracles in their new club debut season and even fewer do it on a shoestring in terms of budget.

Those mentioning Kenwright and the syndicate he fronts - the support he and they provide their new manager this summer will indicate their true feelings and core beliefs - keeping our finer players being one matter but backing their new appointment with the means to show ambition and progress being another matter again. The soundbites were great - pushing for Champions League - realistically that is the academic next step we ought to look at making - not banging on about it being "our year" and pretending to be in with a shout at the actual title. That ambition follows punching our weight and qualifying for the money pot of Europes top competition.
There is no masking the problems our club has, and for me there is no real expectation as I simply do not have a clue as to what kind of manager and what kind of style(s) said manager will implement - from training to regime to diet to coaching staff to competitive play to off season prep to scouting to consuming football and living and travelling to know as much and then more than every other manager he is competing against.
 
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davek said:
No one who backs him are wearing any *mask* of delight. It's a realistic assessment that he's a talented manager who can do a great job for us.

And no one is expecting you to wear a mask of any description: just remain at worst neutral and let him persuade you or otherwise with results and performances.

To listen to some you'd think we just hired the manager of Marine rather than a man with more trophies than the boring plant pot who Man Utd have just made the worst error of judgement in their history about.
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sums up how i'm going about it! oh but i would also add signings to the list to!!
 

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