Roberto Martinez discussion

[davek]

Your the one stamping your feet fella, just at a manager that's not here any more, I am full of praise for his cup win, I am looking forward to him being here, I merely said it was a step up from relegation to a team that constently fights for europe. sorry for saying something slightly negative sir.
Your being pedantic again using the cup entry as that has nothing to do with league position, and it has not exactly been the norm for him has it?
You claim you're waiting to see and I am not, yet you've clearly decided Martinez is a success long before a ball has been kicked, I am still trying to talk about the pros and cons as I will actually wait and see.
Pretty sure Martinez is the flavor of the month manager by the way. Not too many wanting him in last year.

I'm the one with an open mind about Martinez and I think he'll do well here if he's given time to prove it. You, on the other hand, are creating a condition (Europe qualification) that has to be met for him to be considered a success...a condition, by the way, that Moyes never succeeded in fulfilling for the past three seasons with the 'great squad' he's bequeathed to Martinez.

There's a lot of people who spat the dummy out when Martinez was appointed and they're filling their time now creating bear traps for him to fall into.

I just think that's a bit sad really.

 

[Ihaters]

I'm the one with an open mind about Martinez and I think he'll do well here if he's given time to prove it. You, on the other hand, are creating a condition (Europe qualification) that has to be met for him to be considered a success...a condition, by the way, that Moyes never succeeded in fulfilling for the past three seasons with the 'great squad' he's bequeathed to Martinez.

There's a lot of people who spat the dummy out when Martinez was appointed and they're filling their time now creating bear traps for him to fall into.

I just think that's a bit sad really.

Absolutely wrong on all counts:

I am open minded, I think he can do well, I think he has in the past, will he do well now? no idea, that's open minded.
You on the other hand have decided he will do well and that he has done and probably can do no wrong, even relegation is okay with you.. that's closed minded.

Once more your making things up trying to be pedantic. This is commonplace with you I've noticed. Please show me where I put a stipulation that Martinez should acheive Europe or its a failure. In fact show me where my argument was based around achieving Europe?
Your bitterness at Moyes led you say that Moyes set the bar very low. Therefore I put it to you that Martinez should be able to raise the bar if Moyes was that bad. The bar being set at challenging for Europe.
I also pointed out that this was based on your opinion of Moyes, mine was that Moyes is better than you think, therefore anything near 8th is an acheivement.
Your belittlement of Moyes and blind faith in Martinez is the only thing that is creating a condition here... and yes that is very sad.
If Moyes is rubbish and Martinez is ace like you say.. Martinez should surely do better shouldn't he?

 

[nigelcoyb]

Masks are for burglars and rapists and because I can't find mine I've decided to give RM a chance.

Those identifying the last 11 years of no trophies Everton with mostly brain numbing football as success are understandably frightened - like a budgie caged all it's life then one day the door falls open but conditioned by years of imprisonment it's forgotten how to fly and just sits there squawking.

Give RM a chance - we may learn to fly high once more.

 

[davek]

Absolutely wrong on all counts:

I am open minded, I think he can do well, I think he has in the past, will he do well now? no idea, that's open minded.
You on the other hand have decided he will do well and that he has done and probably can do no wrong, even relegation is okay with you.. that's closed minded.

Ha Ha Ha. That's just a frightening misreading.

Once more your making things up trying to be pedantic. This is commonplace with you I've noticed. Please show me where I put a stipulation that Martinez should acheive Europe or its a failure. In fact show me where my argument was based around achieving Europe? I corrected you on this in your last effort at pedantasism.
Your bitterness at Moyes led you say that Moyes set the bar very low and that Martinez is better. Therefore I put it to you that Martinez should be able to raise the bar if Moyes was that bad. The bar being set at challenging for Europe.
I also pointed out that this was based on your opinion of Moyes, mine was that Moyes is better than you think, therefore anything near 8th is an acheivement.
Your belittlement of Moyes and blind faith in Martinez is the only thing that is creating a condition here... and yes that is very sad.
If Moyes is rubbish and Martinez is ace like you say.. Martinez should surely do better shouldn't he?

You brought Europe in and put it into a thread about Martinez. You said that, in comparison with Moyes having us 'fighting for Europe' Martinez got Wigan relegated...how is that not measuring Martinez by euro qualification standards!!

Moyes and 'success'. It isn't possible to contradict my view that Moyes never secured it. It's just not. Plain fact. It's a plain fact because 5th and 6th is not first, and runner up is not winner. He steadied the ship. Made us hard to beat. If you want to define success as those types of things, be my guest.

 

[bluestevon]

I actually think your both close on what you think just from slightly differing perspectives that through butting heads together are becoming more entrenched in many ways ;p

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Moyes and 'success'. It isn't possible to contradict my view that Moyes never secured it. It's just not. Plain fact. It's a plain fact because 5th and 6th is not first, and runner up is not winner. He steadied the ship. Made us hard to beat. If you want to define success as those types of things, be my guest.

So the sole measure of whether a manager has achieved success is whether he's lifted a pot then Dave?

Great manager that McLeish lad.

 

[Ihaters]

I actually think your both close on what you think just from slightly differing perspectives that through butting heads together are becoming more entrenched in many ways ;p

Finaly a post I agree on lol

I think the difference isnt in our view of Martinez, just what he's replacing and what is successful in terms of his time here.

 

[bluestevon]

So the sole measure of whether a manager has achieved success is whether he's lifted a pot then Dave?

Great manager that McLeish lad.

IF you've managed us and you haven't ever won a pot after 11 years then i honestly cannot for the life of me see how he can be considered a success, in total i think he had 26 goes at a trophy and reached a total of one semi and one final both of which we bottled when it was their for the taking

EDIT: i honestly don't care who won what at whatever other team and if it makes them a success or failure ala MacLeish or whoever, what i care about is what we have done in the past 11 years and their should have been a pot their over that time period simple as

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Finaly a post I agree on lol

I think the difference isnt in our view of Martinez, just what he's replacing and what is successful in terms of his time here.

I'll be interested to see whether Dave measures Martinez by the same yardstick by which he's (totally incorrectly) chosen to use, to classify Moyes tenure as nothing more than "ship steadying".

 

[By god I'm blue]

Finaly a post I agree on lol

I think the difference isnt in our view of Martinez, just what he's replacing and what is successful in terms of his time here.

Moyes was successful in giving us some kudos back, making the team hard to beat and changing the team from bottom half finishers to being consistently in the top 8, nothing at all to be sniffed at, especially under the financial restrictions that he encountered.

As we have no cat in hells chance of winning a league, some people would possibly forsake some of that in return for a bit of silverware, which Martinez, Redknapp, McLeish and Mark Hughes have all shown can be done.

So, I guess it's all down to interpretation of the word "success" and how you view it.

Neither of you are wrong IMO.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

IF you've managed us and you haven't ever won a pot after 11 years then i honestly cannot for the life of me see how he can be considered a success, in total i think he had 26 goes at a trophy and reached a total of one semi and one final both of which we bottled when it was their for the taking

EDIT: i honestly don't care who won what at whatever other team and if it makes them a success or failure ala MacLeish or whoever, what i care about is what we have done in the past 11 years and their should have been a pot their over that time period simple as

His failure to lift a pot was obviously his shortcoming, but that alone doesn't mean that you couldn't class his tenure as a success.

In any case this boring topic has been done to death & there's acres of stats etc that have been produced to show how what he achieved was beyond what should have been possible given his budget, but the counter argument was that his length of tenure gave him a level of stability that was a massive advantage. He's gone now, he's Man United's manager & good luck to him with that.

Time will tell whether the next year or 2, puts a different light on what should constitute 'success' at our club, based on the reality of 2013 - rather than the misty eyed viewing of our history......

 

[Brennan]

New pet hate: Calling trophies 'pots'.

 

[bluestevon]

Moyes was successful in giving us some kudos back, making the team hard to beat and changing the team from bottom half finishers to being consistently in the top 8, nothing at all to be sniffed at, especially under the financial restrictions that he encountered.

As we have no cat in hells chance of winning a league, some people would possibly forsake some of that in return for a bit of silverware, which Martinez, Redknapp, McLeish and Mark Hughes have all shown can be done.

So, I guess it's all down to interpretation of the word "success" and how you view it.

Neither of you are wrong IMO.

I'd add a curious transition that happened somewhere along the way, we went from being described in such ways as fallen giant, proud team steeped in history and glory etc to being described as plucky little team punching above its weight, and conditioned by a combination of factors some of them serving a agenda to portray us this way for their own benefit to start believing this lie.

Sorry but i remember the 80's well i know my history before then very well, i feel sorry for some of the young lads who follow us without ever had the chance to see us winning title and lifting cups to make the bad times a little easier, to those who do follow us i give all the respect in the world and one day you'll see us doing it again

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

New pet hate: Calling trophies 'pots'.

 

[By god I'm blue]

I'd add a curious transition that happened somewhere along the way, we went from being described in such ways as fallen giant, proud team steeped in history and glory etc to being described as plucky little team punching above its weight, and conditioned by a combination of factors some of them serving a agenda to portray us this way for their own benefit to start believing this lie.

Sorry but i remember the 80's well i know my history before then very well, i feel sorry for some of the young lads who follow us without ever had the chance to see us winning title and lifting cups to make the bad times a little easier, to those who do follow us i give all the respect in the world and one day you'll see us doing it again

The interpretation of how Everton are perceived all comes from that individual person.

If you had only followed Everton for the last 20 years of your life, you would consider what Moyes did to be a success. However if the person is from your era or mine, then we don't really consider that a success, but can still see the good he has done.

The game has moved on so much, I am realistic to know that unless you have a sugar daddy with an bottomless pit of money, you will never challenge for the league title again sadly.