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Ronald Koeman discussion

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davek said:
That's just not true: I'm saying give him time, but let's judge what's happened so far without any rose tinted glasses.
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You just said this mate: "I'd give him another two windows and this time next season to improve things drastically. I think he or anyone else deserves at least a season or so to prove themselves."

I will say give him time to improve this weak bottom half squad.
 
davek said:
I'd give him another two windows and this time next season to improve things drastically. I think he or anyone else deserves at least a season or so to prove themselves.

However, I refuse to be told that Koeman is on track or making anything other than an utter balls up of this team as things stand. I and others know what we see: a hopeless hoofball strategy conducted by a man who fails to accept his responsibility for it. This is his watch now and it has been for 6 months. He's had time enough to get on top of things. He has to be judged on his own merits in terms of how he integrates his own signings with what we had before he arrived. IMO, he's done an absolutely shocking job.
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...I think this is fair enough. I admit to not being convinced, decisions like bringing on DC-L on right side midfield on Monday are odd, as was the balance on the bench but I accept change comes with angst and disappointments. I hope we see signs in this window of what RK is aiming for and we should have more idea by this time next season.

I would disagree with the hoofball 'strategy'. The stats support the view that we are a long ball team but if we're giving him 2 or 3 windows I think we also have to give him time to define his style of play. At this point it might be more tactical than strategic, with his type of players we might see something different. Only time will tell.
 
Papa Shango said:
This line of thinking is beginning to annoy me (not by you specifically by the way...)

Martinez got 3 years because the wheels fell off half way through season two. If he was the same at the beginning than he was at the end then he would have been getting questions asked too. Similarly if Koeman started off how Martinez did then he would be getting less questions asked of him.

Of course he needs time, but 3 years seems to be an accepted amount these days. If he is crap he is crap, you dont need 3 years to prove that.

I'm not saying he is crap by the way either....
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But Martinez inherited a much stronger unit than Koeman.

Everton finished sixth on 63 points. That was two points and once place higher than Liverpool in seventh and fourteen points of eight placed West Brom.

So effectively, Martinez had a fourteen point gap between Everton and the rest. In his last two seasons, that gap was completely blown away.

By contrast, Koeman inherited a team that had finished the previous two seasons in the bottom half. Unheard of at Everton since the Walter Smith days.

So in that context, I personally find the current rabble rousing against our current manager very UnEvertonian and self entitled.
 
hktoffee said:
You just said this mate: "I'd give him another two windows and this time next season to improve things drastically. I think he or anyone else deserves at least a season or so to prove themselves."

I will say give him time to improve this weak bottom half squad.
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...and you dont think that could or should be done in 18 months?
 

balggy said:
But Martinez inherited a much stronger unit than Koeman.

Everton finished sixth on 63 points. That was two points and once place higher than Liverpool in seventh and fourteen points of eight placed West Brom.

So effectively, Martinez had a fourteen point gap between Everton and the rest. In his last two seasons, that gap was completely blown away.

By contrast, Koeman inherited a team that had finished the previous two seasons in the bottom half. Unheard of at Everton since the Walter Smith days.

So in that context, I personally find the current rabble rousing against our current manager very UnEvertonian and self entitled.
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He inherited a team that was creaking, Hibbert, Osman, Distin, Howard, even Jagielka and Baines were all important players coming to the end of their careers and he was left without a usable striker on the books (Jelavic was done, Anichebe was...well, Anichebe and Naismith).

It doesnt matter anyway, we need to stop comparing the two managers (3 really as we do it with Moyes as well) a manager should be judged on his own merits.

This bottom half stuff is silly too. It was 11th. Technically its bottom half but its also mid table which doesnt sound quite as bad does it? Not great but not constant relegation strugglers either.

Koeman will get some time and rightfully so. This does not make him immune from criticism though. For me so far he has been quite unimpressive and even worrying in certain aspects. That doesnt mean I want him sacking or anything either.

We are self entitled. Most fans are. (Some more than others...). I do think some people are not fans of Koeman because they have not been impressed with his managerial record before coming here. I'm one of them to be honest. He did well at Southampton under tough circumstances, before that i was never overly impressed.

Time will tell though. No matter what we say if we are being honest we all want him to do well because that makes the club do well and will make us all happier.
 
Eggs said:
...I think this is fair enough. I admit to not being convinced, decisions like bringing on DC-L on right side midfield on Monday are odd, as was the balance on the bench but I accept change comes with angst and disappointments. I hope we see signs in this window of what RK is aiming for and we should have more idea by this time next season.

I would disagree with the hoofball 'strategy'. The stats support the view that we are a long ball team but if we're giving him 2 or 3 windows I think we also have to give him time to define his style of play. At this point it might be more tactical than strategic, with his type of players we might see something different. Only time will tell.
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I have experience watching his football only at Feyenoord and Southampton. Both those tenures suggest to me a manager who likes to go back to front ASAP. But with Everton thus far that tendency has been accentuated to the point where there is almost nothing else to the team's game...something that couldn't be said of his time at S'ton.

As said, I accept that with time and spending this will be improved. But i retain the right to judge what he's done here so far as it stands: to me he hasn't made an effort to adapt to our squad's profile. He has not been the pragmatist we all were told we were getting. He's thrown his hands up in the air in apparent exasperation and just dictated that we play very crude football "until I can get my own players in".

Well I'm sorry, but that type of hissy fit is something we could not afford. He's been negligent in his first 6 months here. I dont see any pattern or building block being put into place. And I dont think I'm the only one.
 
I agree with Dave, this season is a gimme for Koeman but we need to see improvement next season when/if he gets his players in.

We disagree on joke shop manager Blerto Bobbins.

But ok, that's football.
 
Papa Shango said:
He inherited a team that was creaking, Hibbert, Osman, Distin, Howard, even Jagielka and Baines were all important players coming to the end of their careers and he was left without a usable striker on the books (Jelavic was done, Anichebe was...well, Anichebe and Naismith).
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not having that mate, the names highlighted were key to the 16 clean sheets that got us such an impressive tally that season. Once they did deteriorate and the defensive trading obviously deteriorated what was always going to happen under Martinez happened.
 

Mickey said:
I agree with Dave, this season is a gimme for Koeman but we need to see improvement next season when/if he gets his players in.

We disagree on joke shop manager Blerto Bobbins.

But ok, that's football.
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I'll guarantee you'll see improvements next season. I'll bet my account on it. I'd bet my account that we will improve as the season goes.
 
davek said:
Then you have a very short memory. Even in the last two mediocre seasons Everton were noted by most in the game as a team that could get on the ball and play some very nice football. No one is ever going to say the same about this ugly Everton team Koeman is intent on putting together. We are in a bracket now with the likes of Palace, Watford and West Brom - teams that pay very little attention to the movement of the ball.

It's 'kin atrocious.
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Oh look who's back. We must have lost a game.
 
ianefc said:
not having that mate, the names highlighted were key to the 16 clean sheets that got us such an impressive tally that season. Once they did deteriorate and the defensive trading obviously deteriorated what was always going to happen under Martinez happened.
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I dont care what you are having....

Only messing, Distin and Howard had been finished for a while to be fair. I think a lot of our solidity that season was due to McCarthy and Barry as well. McCarthy got injured, Barry aged and our full backs forgot how to block crosses. And sure that may be down to Martinez, still doesnt mean that the squad wasnt creaking. He had a bigger job on than people realised, also, as Moyes found out himself, its really hard to follow on from a manager who has been a part of the furniture for so long.

Im not really bothered about Martinez though. The questions are about Koeman. he is trying a totally different philosophy (hate that term in football but cant think of anything else right now...) with half a new team in there as well and yet the results are pretty much the same. That worries me.

We will go on and win 5 on the bounce now such is the Everton way.
 

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