Ronald Koeman discussion

[ianefc]

I think when Koeman arrived we all had massive expectations for the season as it was the first time in a generation that we had money to spend. It didn't go as we had planned/hoped and Koeman more or less had to work with what he had.... A team that had finished 11th two years on the trot. Most of us had believed it was the most talented squad we have had since the premier league started and in hindsight that may be true, but it doesn't mean that it was good enough to satisfy our expectations.

Despite @davek arguing in favour of Martinez, the guy did a serious job on us. True, he had a fantastic first season but the next 2 showed us that all he managed to do in his first season was put some attacking icing on a hard to beat Moyes team that had shown some glimpses of it's potential in DM's final season.

With a season under his belt all that hard work that Moyes had instilled in the players was finally worn away and we started to see how much of an impact Martinez's decision to remove fitness from the weekly training routine had on the squad. This, coupled with his inability to coach the defensive side of the game led to 2 lowly league finishes that were frankly unacceptable.

From a players perspective I can understand why they changed to Martinez's methods. For years under Moyes they had been told that they were punching above their weight and could be satisfied with where we were finishing. Martinez came in full of positivity and changed things. It would have been strange for them but using the basis of a hard to beat defence Martinez provided the team with a passing game that had them receiving plaudits that they hadn't received before and on top of that we took a few scalps off the big boys in that first season which endorsed his methods. The players buy into his methods fully and the downfall began.

If it can take a season to destroy the work ethic that Moyes imposed on the players it is going to take just as long to get it back, as it is certainly harder to regain fitness than it is to lose it.

I for one am certainly starting to see improvements of late and they are massive. To me Lukaku is looking 10 times the player he did under Martinez. This is the first time since he signed for us that I have seen him able to hold up a ball and bring other players into the game. I haven't seen him looking knackered after making a run for a long time. When under Martinez did you see him defend from the front? It's why we all thought he was lazy.

I liked the way we were able to keep the ball under Martinez but it was all very safe and too deep. We weren't a tackling team but rather retreated to our own half and tried to block lines of supply for the opposing player in possession. It rarely worked and if it ever did we only ever had one player in a counter attack as we'd retreated so much. It was frustrating to say the least. We couldn't attack and we couldn't defend.

It is a massive job but it is undoubtedly starting to show the players that the hard work is worth it. This window is a big one for us with outgoing players just as important as incomings. We've had too long with the McGeady's of this world hanging around our squad. Players like this (and I use that term lightly) lower the standard of the squad and with them leaving send a message to the rest of the squad that being below standard won't be tolerated. That should raise their own standards at the very least. Bringing in players like scheiderlin in a position that could be argued has enough cover forces competition and if that competition is of a higher standard than the ones that left it can only have a positive impact on the squad.

As I've said, it is a big job and won't be complete over night but I am seeing positive moves in the right direction. There is undoubted talent in this squad but it needs improving and the whole and those in the first 11 need to Know that there is someone breathing down their neck if their standards drop.

I don't want to wake up tomorrow and find we've done a City and bought a whole new starting 11. There are players here that I've grown to love and if they are eventually deemed not good enough it means we have improved enough for me to accept that they no longer warrant a place in an improved team. I want this to be an organic improvement and that is what I am seeing at the moment. A couple of new signings of a higher quality than those that leave/have left and the team continuing to work hard and I'll be happy with Koeman's first season as I cannot see us finishing lower than 7th. The summer should then see us able to attract that higher calibre of player needed to help with breaking the top 4.

Sorry it was a long one.

Without doubt (especially bold bit). Been saying it for years. A complete anomaly in his premier league record.

 

[Carl77]

Good read that mate

They should put that on the front page of the site!

Cheers, been waiting for evidence in Koman's methods working before putting it in words but aside from a couple of hiccups we've started to see it since the Arsenal game.

I think that the formation used against City at the weekend looks very defensive on paper but when you consider how attacking Baines and Coleman are and have the energy of Tom Davies who seems like a good box to box midfielder it is anything but that. Gives us a basis to be solid but we can flood forward as and when we need to. Once Gueye is back or Scneiderlin replaces Barry I think it will work even better. It will allow us to manage Barry's game time too as he can still do a job but not in every game or even for a full 90 minutes.

Really can't underestimate the role that Lukaku's improvement in hold up play makes to the team. It gives the likes of Barkley and Mirallas the confidence to get forward knowing that he can bring them into play rather than worrying that they'll get caught out of position when he looses it.

 

[Prevenger17]

Really can't underestimate the role that Lukaku's improvement in hold up play makes to the team.

There has been no improvement

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Cheers, been waiting for evidence in Koman's methods working before putting it in words but aside from a couple of hiccups we've started to see it since the Arsenal game.

I think that the formation used against City at the weekend looks very defensive on paper but when you consider how attacking Baines and Coleman are and have the energy of Tom Davies who seems like a good box to box midfielder it is anything but that. Gives us a basis to be solid but we can flood forward as and when we need to. Once Gueye is back or Scneiderlin replaces Barry I think it will work even better. It will allow us to manage Barry's game time too as he can still do a job but not in every game or even for a full 90 minutes.

Really can't underestimate the role that Lukaku's improvement in hold up play makes to the team. It gives the likes of Barkley and Mirallas the confidence to get forward knowing that he can bring them into play rather than worrying that they'll get caught out of position when he looses it.

i think we should always start with davies and use barry as his replacement on the hour or 70 mins.

he's a great player to have on the bench, and he isnt going to kick up a fuss about not playing as he knows he's in the twighlight of his career.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

There has been no improvement

what did you call him,

oh yeah, 'trampoline shins' lol lol lol

 

[Carl77]

There has been no improvement

Each to their own but I can see massive improvements. Always looked to me like he was trying to make it look like he was trying or waiting for the ball to come to his feet whilst a defender just stepped forward and intercepted it.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

I think when Koeman arrived we all had massive expectations for the season as it was the first time in a generation that we had money to spend. It didn't go as we had planned/hoped and Koeman more or less had to work with what he had.... A team that had finished 11th two years on the trot. Most of us had believed it was the most talented squad we have had since the premier league started and in hindsight that may be true, but it doesn't mean that it was good enough to satisfy our expectations.

Despite @davek arguing in favour of Martinez, the guy did a serious job on us. True, he had a fantastic first season but the next 2 showed us that all he managed to do in his first season was put some attacking icing on a hard to beat Moyes team that had shown some glimpses of it's potential in DM's final season.

With a season under his belt all that hard work that Moyes had instilled in the players was finally worn away and we started to see how much of an impact Martinez's decision to remove fitness from the weekly training routine had on the squad. This, coupled with his inability to coach the defensive side of the game led to 2 lowly league finishes that were frankly unacceptable.

From a players perspective I can understand why they changed to Martinez's methods. For years under Moyes they had been told that they were punching above their weight and could be satisfied with where we were finishing. Martinez came in full of positivity and changed things. It would have been strange for them but using the basis of a hard to beat defence Martinez provided the team with a passing game that had them receiving plaudits that they hadn't received before and on top of that we took a few scalps off the big boys in that first season which endorsed his methods. The players buy into his methods fully and the downfall began.

If it can take a season to destroy the work ethic that Moyes imposed on the players it is going to take just as long to get it back, as it is certainly harder to regain fitness than it is to lose it.

I for one am certainly starting to see improvements of late and they are massive. To me Lukaku is looking 10 times the player he did under Martinez. This is the first time since he signed for us that I have seen him able to hold up a ball and bring other players into the game. I haven't seen him looking knackered after making a run for a long time. When under Martinez did you see him defend from the front? It's why we all thought he was lazy.

I liked the way we were able to keep the ball under Martinez but it was all very safe and too deep. We weren't a tackling team but rather retreated to our own half and tried to block lines of supply for the opposing player in possession. It rarely worked and if it ever did we only ever had one player in a counter attack as we'd retreated so much. It was frustrating to say the least. We couldn't attack and we couldn't defend.

It is a massive job but it is undoubtedly starting to show the players that the hard work is worth it. This window is a big one for us with outgoing players just as important as incomings. We've had too long with the McGeady's of this world hanging around our squad. Players like this (and I use that term lightly) lower the standard of the squad and with them leaving send a message to the rest of the squad that being below standard won't be tolerated. That should raise their own standards at the very least. Bringing in players like scheiderlin in a position that could be argued has enough cover forces competition and if that competition is of a higher standard than the ones that left it can only have a positive impact on the squad.

As I've said, it is a big job and won't be complete over night but I am seeing positive moves in the right direction. There is undoubted talent in this squad but it needs improving and the whole and those in the first 11 need to Know that there is someone breathing down their neck if their standards drop.

I don't want to wake up tomorrow and find we've done a City and bought a whole new starting 11. There are players here that I've grown to love and if they are eventually deemed not good enough it means we have improved enough for me to accept that they no longer warrant a place in an improved team. I want this to be an organic improvement and that is what I am seeing at the moment. A couple of new signings of a higher quality than those that leave/have left and the team continuing to work hard and I'll be happy with Koeman's first season as I cannot see us finishing lower than 7th. The summer should then see us able to attract that higher calibre of player needed to help with breaking the top 4.

Sorry it was a long one.

Excellent post. Agree with every word.

 

[ianefc]

There has been no improvement

 

[blue61]

I think when Koeman arrived we all had massive expectations for the season as it was the first time in a generation that we had money to spend. It didn't go as we had planned/hoped and Koeman more or less had to work with what he had.... A team that had finished 11th two years on the trot. Most of us had believed it was the most talented squad we have had since the premier league started and in hindsight that may be true, but it doesn't mean that it was good enough to satisfy our expectations.

Despite @davek arguing in favour of Martinez, the guy did a serious job on us. True, he had a fantastic first season but the next 2 showed us that all he managed to do in his first season was put some attacking icing on a hard to beat Moyes team that had shown some glimpses of it's potential in DM's final season.

With a season under his belt all that hard work that Moyes had instilled in the players was finally worn away and we started to see how much of an impact Martinez's decision to remove fitness from the weekly training routine had on the squad. This, coupled with his inability to coach the defensive side of the game led to 2 lowly league finishes that were frankly unacceptable.

From a players perspective I can understand why they changed to Martinez's methods. For years under Moyes they had been told that they were punching above their weight and could be satisfied with where we were finishing. Martinez came in full of positivity and changed things. It would have been strange for them but using the basis of a hard to beat defence Martinez provided the team with a passing game that had them receiving plaudits that they hadn't received before and on top of that we took a few scalps off the big boys in that first season which endorsed his methods. The players buy into his methods fully and the downfall began.

If it can take a season to destroy the work ethic that Moyes imposed on the players it is going to take just as long to get it back, as it is certainly harder to regain fitness than it is to lose it.

I for one am certainly starting to see improvements of late and they are massive. To me Lukaku is looking 10 times the player he did under Martinez. This is the first time since he signed for us that I have seen him able to hold up a ball and bring other players into the game. I haven't seen him looking knackered after making a run for a long time. When under Martinez did you see him defend from the front? It's why we all thought he was lazy.

I liked the way we were able to keep the ball under Martinez but it was all very safe and too deep. We weren't a tackling team but rather retreated to our own half and tried to block lines of supply for the opposing player in possession. It rarely worked and if it ever did we only ever had one player in a counter attack as we'd retreated so much. It was frustrating to say the least. We couldn't attack and we couldn't defend.

It is a massive job but it is undoubtedly starting to show the players that the hard work is worth it. This window is a big one for us with outgoing players just as important as incomings. We've had too long with the McGeady's of this world hanging around our squad. Players like this (and I use that term lightly) lower the standard of the squad and with them leaving send a message to the rest of the squad that being below standard won't be tolerated. That should raise their own standards at the very least. Bringing in players like scheiderlin in a position that could be argued has enough cover forces competition and if that competition is of a higher standard than the ones that left it can only have a positive impact on the squad.

As I've said, it is a big job and won't be complete over night but I am seeing positive moves in the right direction. There is undoubted talent in this squad but it needs improving and the whole and those in the first 11 need to Know that there is someone breathing down their neck if their standards drop.

I don't want to wake up tomorrow and find we've done a City and bought a whole new starting 11. There are players here that I've grown to love and if they are eventually deemed not good enough it means we have improved enough for me to accept that they no longer warrant a place in an improved team. I want this to be an organic improvement and that is what I am seeing at the moment. A couple of new signings of a higher quality than those that leave/have left and the team continuing to work hard and I'll be happy with Koeman's first season as I cannot see us finishing lower than 7th. The summer should then see us able to attract that higher calibre of player needed to help with breaking the top 4.

Sorry it was a long one.

Great post mate, bang on.

 

[Prevenger17]

what did you call him,

oh yeah, 'trampoline shins' lol lol lol

That ain't mine, it's been doing the rounds for a year or 2. Could be @MoutsGoat actually

 

[Goat]

That ain't mine, it's been doing the rounds for a year or 2. Could be @MoutsGoat actually

I agree, to a degree, but then you have strikers like Costa, he scores goals and he puts himself about, I wish Lukaku was more like Costa, but Costas like what 28?
Lukaku doesnt help himself with his trampoline shins, which leads people to question his "talent", but honestly, people really do forget hes still only 21.
MoutsGoat, Feb 21, 2015

 

[Blues Harp]

I think when Koeman arrived we all had massive expectations for the season as it was the first time in a generation that we had money to spend. It didn't go as we had planned/hoped and Koeman more or less had to work with what he had.... A team that had finished 11th two years on the trot. Most of us had believed it was the most talented squad we have had since the premier league started and in hindsight that may be true, but it doesn't mean that it was good enough to satisfy our expectations.

Despite @davek arguing in favour of Martinez, the guy did a serious job on us. True, he had a fantastic first season but the next 2 showed us that all he managed to do in his first season was put some attacking icing on a hard to beat Moyes team that had shown some glimpses of it's potential in DM's final season.

With a season under his belt all that hard work that Moyes had instilled in the players was finally worn away and we started to see how much of an impact Martinez's decision to remove fitness from the weekly training routine had on the squad. This, coupled with his inability to coach the defensive side of the game led to 2 lowly league finishes that were frankly unacceptable.

From a players perspective I can understand why they changed to Martinez's methods. For years under Moyes they had been told that they were punching above their weight and could be satisfied with where we were finishing. Martinez came in full of positivity and changed things. It would have been strange for them but using the basis of a hard to beat defence Martinez provided the team with a passing game that had them receiving plaudits that they hadn't received before and on top of that we took a few scalps off the big boys in that first season which endorsed his methods. The players buy into his methods fully and the downfall began.

If it can take a season to destroy the work ethic that Moyes imposed on the players it is going to take just as long to get it back, as it is certainly harder to regain fitness than it is to lose it.

I for one am certainly starting to see improvements of late and they are massive. To me Lukaku is looking 10 times the player he did under Martinez. This is the first time since he signed for us that I have seen him able to hold up a ball and bring other players into the game. I haven't seen him looking knackered after making a run for a long time. When under Martinez did you see him defend from the front? It's why we all thought he was lazy.

I liked the way we were able to keep the ball under Martinez but it was all very safe and too deep. We weren't a tackling team but rather retreated to our own half and tried to block lines of supply for the opposing player in possession. It rarely worked and if it ever did we only ever had one player in a counter attack as we'd retreated so much. It was frustrating to say the least. We couldn't attack and we couldn't defend.

It is a massive job but it is undoubtedly starting to show the players that the hard work is worth it. This window is a big one for us with outgoing players just as important as incomings. We've had too long with the McGeady's of this world hanging around our squad. Players like this (and I use that term lightly) lower the standard of the squad and with them leaving send a message to the rest of the squad that being below standard won't be tolerated. That should raise their own standards at the very least. Bringing in players like scheiderlin in a position that could be argued has enough cover forces competition and if that competition is of a higher standard than the ones that left it can only have a positive impact on the squad.

As I've said, it is a big job and won't be complete over night but I am seeing positive moves in the right direction. There is undoubted talent in this squad but it needs improving and the whole and those in the first 11 need to Know that there is someone breathing down their neck if their standards drop.

I don't want to wake up tomorrow and find we've done a City and bought a whole new starting 11. There are players here that I've grown to love and if they are eventually deemed not good enough it means we have improved enough for me to accept that they no longer warrant a place in an improved team. I want this to be an organic improvement and that is what I am seeing at the moment. A couple of new signings of a higher quality than those that leave/have left and the team continuing to work hard and I'll be happy with Koeman's first season as I cannot see us finishing lower than 7th. The summer should then see us able to attract that higher calibre of player needed to help with breaking the top 4.

Sorry it was a long one.

Don't be sorry....well written and good insight Optimistic and realistic at the same time...

 

[vagant59]

I think when Koeman arrived we all had massive expectations for the season as it was the first time in a generation that we had money to spend. It didn't go as we had planned/hoped and Koeman more or less had to work with what he had.... A team that had finished 11th two years on the trot. Most of us had believed it was the most talented squad we have had since the premier league started and in hindsight that may be true, but it doesn't mean that it was good enough to satisfy our expectations.

Despite @davek arguing in favour of Martinez, the guy did a serious job on us. True, he had a fantastic first season but the next 2 showed us that all he managed to do in his first season was put some attacking icing on a hard to beat Moyes team that had shown some glimpses of it's potential in DM's final season.

With a season under his belt all that hard work that Moyes had instilled in the players was finally worn away and we started to see how much of an impact Martinez's decision to remove fitness from the weekly training routine had on the squad. This, coupled with his inability to coach the defensive side of the game led to 2 lowly league finishes that were frankly unacceptable.

From a players perspective I can understand why they changed to Martinez's methods. For years under Moyes they had been told that they were punching above their weight and could be satisfied with where we were finishing. Martinez came in full of positivity and changed things. It would have been strange for them but using the basis of a hard to beat defence Martinez provided the team with a passing game that had them receiving plaudits that they hadn't received before and on top of that we took a few scalps off the big boys in that first season which endorsed his methods. The players buy into his methods fully and the downfall began.

If it can take a season to destroy the work ethic that Moyes imposed on the players it is going to take just as long to get it back, as it is certainly harder to regain fitness than it is to lose it.

I for one am certainly starting to see improvements of late and they are massive. To me Lukaku is looking 10 times the player he did under Martinez. This is the first time since he signed for us that I have seen him able to hold up a ball and bring other players into the game. I haven't seen him looking knackered after making a run for a long time. When under Martinez did you see him defend from the front? It's why we all thought he was lazy.

I liked the way we were able to keep the ball under Martinez but it was all very safe and too deep. We weren't a tackling team but rather retreated to our own half and tried to block lines of supply for the opposing player in possession. It rarely worked and if it ever did we only ever had one player in a counter attack as we'd retreated so much. It was frustrating to say the least. We couldn't attack and we couldn't defend.

It is a massive job but it is undoubtedly starting to show the players that the hard work is worth it. This window is a big one for us with outgoing players just as important as incomings. We've had too long with the McGeady's of this world hanging around our squad. Players like this (and I use that term lightly) lower the standard of the squad and with them leaving send a message to the rest of the squad that being below standard won't be tolerated. That should raise their own standards at the very least. Bringing in players like scheiderlin in a position that could be argued has enough cover forces competition and if that competition is of a higher standard than the ones that left it can only have a positive impact on the squad.

As I've said, it is a big job and won't be complete over night but I am seeing positive moves in the right direction. There is undoubted talent in this squad but it needs improving and the whole and those in the first 11 need to Know that there is someone breathing down their neck if their standards drop.

I don't want to wake up tomorrow and find we've done a City and bought a whole new starting 11. There are players here that I've grown to love and if they are eventually deemed not good enough it means we have improved enough for me to accept that they no longer warrant a place in an improved team. I want this to be an organic improvement and that is what I am seeing at the moment. A couple of new signings of a higher quality than those that leave/have left and the team continuing to work hard and I'll be happy with Koeman's first season as I cannot see us finishing lower than 7th. The summer should then see us able to attract that higher calibre of player needed to help with breaking the top 4.

Sorry it was a long one.

EXCELLENT POST. TAKE A BOW LID

 

[1/4/2017 We Will Win]

We did win 4-0 this weekend, didn't we?

I'm a couple of pages in. I don't think we did.

 

[davek]

It's not like they had a 100% home record at that point and 18 out of 21 points on the board, is it?

Oh wait.

Pack it in ffs.

Yeah, wait....drew 3-3 against Scottish a pub team in the CL and lost against Spurs. They were the two games where City's season started to implode.

You're welcome.

They won 5-0 the week before.

lollollollollollollol

The game back in October. Keep up, FFS.

*sigh*