Ronald Koeman discussion

[davek]

Clever investment we could mount a proper top 4 assault with around the 100 million net spend. Exactly the reason Walsh was brought I suspect, to bring in players that can help us on the way for a fraction of the price.

You don't need marquee signings to make top 4. But you'll need them to start winning things. Only takes a few more results in the usual 'bad runs' to remain up there. But I think the manager and players will be better equipped to deal with that next season.

Will be interesting to hear what Koeman's aspirations are for next season.

Sort of agree with this.

The last time we stacked up enough points that could and should have been enough ordinarily to grab a top 3 place never mind a top 4 spot we suffered because 4 teams above were so resilient. Arsenal were rocking at one point but then put clear daylight between us. So that is another factor: the performance of the elites. What isn't out of the question though is for us to run up that total again and see if the elites can claw us back in.

 

[davek]

Sadly not.

For the reasons I highlighted above, its not about cash thrown down, its not about levels of investment in the correct players.

Oh right, so it's a prediction you can never be proven wrong on then, because your bottom line is a moveable feast.

That makes sense.

FFS just give me a figure that his progress can be measured by.

I tell you what, by September and the end of the summer window you can assess the squad and then declare them fit for purpose for a top 4 tilt - deal?

 

[Goat]

Sort of agree with this.

The last time we stacked up enough points that could and should have been enough ordinarily to grab a top 3 place never mind a top 4 spot we suffered because 4 teams above were so resilient. Arsenal were rocking at one point but then put clear daylight between us. So that is another factor: the performance of the elites. What isn't out of the question though is for us to run up that total again and see if the elites can claw us back in.

Sadly the season you spoke of, our manager at the time dropped the ball.

We needed a replacement for Lukaku and sadly our manager signed an injured striker, then Lukaku got injured which broke our stride, the Palace game just ended our season, but with the right levels of investment in the right players, we should have had enough, we schooled Arse at Goodison, that should have been the spark needed, but sadly and I mean no disrespect to our former manager, he was sadly way out of his depth.

But anyway, we digress, thats the past and now we must look to the future.

Ronny K is a born winner, winning is all he knows, we are in good hands now.

 

[Deco]

Seriously though after reading through pages and pages of this every day, why do you dislike Koeman so much @davek ?

Forget about Southampton, forget about his previous achievements and failures. I had huge doubts about him when he first joined, but let's look at the facts:

1. We are sitting comfortably 7th and not far from the top 6, which is what we should be with everything considered. This is a good season so far based on the fact that last season when our last manager was sacked, we were below clubs such as Swansea, West Ham, Southampton and Stoke. The season before that, we finished below Swansea, Southampton, Stoke and Palace. To bring us back to where we're expected to be within 6 months of the season is impressive.
2. We're playing quite a few youngsters and across the media this has been picked up. The fact is that we're giving youth more game time than any other team in the league.
3. Our hugely leaky defence of the past couple of seasons has now turned very hard to break down.
4. Players are no longer guaranteed a place in the team regardless of their performances. Koeman has shipped out/is shipping out all of the deadwood and with the help of Walsh, improving the squad each window.
5. It's looking very likely that we'll get into Europe. I know you think this is a negative, but it's key for attracting players, improving our brand, and also those amazing European away days.

It's fine to be cautious, but the obvious negativity you have towards Koeman is unfair based on his performance this season.

Also, it's refreshing to hear a manager who can give his honest assessment of things. Foundationless praise gets you nowhere in football.

 

[Abraders]

I disagree. We had an overreaction to Gueye leaving for the AFCON. We had a lot of players still here who could play that role...and Davies had already easily suggested he could be one of them...meantime we are crying out for some gumption up front and that's where the cash should have been prioritised for.

It was a frivolous squandering of precious resources, imo.

Hmmm, fair enough. I for one feel as though we have a formidable midfield now between Barry, Gana, Schniederlin and Davies and I'd really wanted us to sign a proper CM.

 

[Goat]

Oh right, so it's a prediction you can never be proven wrong on then, because your bottom line is a moveable feast.

That makes sense.

FFS just give me a figure that his progress can be measured by.

I tell you what, by September and the end of the summer window you can assess the squad and then declare them fit for purpose for a top 4 tilt - deal?

I did that this summer.

I deemed our inability to get the right players in was always going to cost us and so its proven.

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/...ad-analysis-thread.89198/page-11#post-4812468

As you can see from this post I was demanding we signed the 2 players that are still missing.

A magic man and a real option up top.

 

[davek]

Sadly the season you spoke of, our manager at the time dropped the ball.

We needed a replacement for Lukaku and sadly our manager signed an injured striker, then Lukaku got injured which broke our stride, the Palace game just ended our season, but with the right levels of investment in the right players, we should have had enough, we schooled Arse at Goodison, that should have been the spark needed, but sadly and I mean no disrespect to our former manager, he was sadly way out of his depth.

Agree with that bit. I accept he could have bought better in January that season. However, Arsenal are Arsenal...I suspect they;d have alway got the job done. They finished 7 points ahead in the end...what would a different signing than Traore for us have achieved - another 6 points tops?

But anyway, we digress, thats the past and now we must look to the future.

Ronny K is a born winner, winning is all he knows, we are in good hands now.

The future is unwritten. A winner as a player with no credentials that suggest a top 4 finish in 17 years of managing.

 

[davek]

I did that this summer.

I deemed our inability to get the right players in was always going to cost us and so its proven.

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/...ad-analysis-thread.89198/page-11#post-4812468

As you can see from this post I was demanding we signed the 2 players that are still missing.

A magic man and a real option up top.

...so this September you'll repeat this analysis and give us a definitive yay or nay on whether Koeman must make a top 4 spot?

 

[Goat]

Agree with that bit. I accept he could have bought better in January that season. However, Arsenal are Arsenal...I suspect they;d have alway got the job done. They finished 7 points ahead in the end...what would a different signing than Traore for us have achieved - another 6 points tops?

The future is unwritten. A winner as a player with no credentials that suggest a top 4 finish in 17 years of managing.

As a manager hes won Titles, now im aware you deem the Dutch League as Walton Park Sunday League, but his 9 trophies suggests he knows what it takes to win.

 

[Goat]

...so this September you'll repeat this analysis and give us a definitive yay or nay on whether Koeman must make a top 4 spot?

Yes David, I do a squad tactical breakdown thread every year.

I will review the squad when the players return to pre-season training and highlight any issues.

 

[Mikeonlythebestwilldo]

As a manager hes won Titles, now im aware you deem the Dutch League as Walton Park Sunday League, but his 9 trophies suggests he knows what it takes to win.

Plus he's adjusted to the premiership with soton and learned a few things on the way too

 

[jinkyali]

Agree with that bit. I accept he could have bought better in January that season. However, Arsenal are Arsenal...I suspect they;d have alway got the job done. They finished 7 points ahead in the end...what would a different signing than Traore for us have achieved - another 6 points tops?

The future is unwritten. A winner as a player with no credentials that suggest a top 4 finish in 17 years of managing.

If the future is unwritten I suggest you pipe down with your assertion that RK will never achieve a 72 point total.

 

[davek]

Seriously though after reading through pages and pages of this every day, why do you dislike Koeman so much @davek ?

Forget about Southampton, forget about his previous achievements and failures. I had huge doubts about him when he first joined, but let's look at the facts:

1. We are sitting comfortably 7th and not far from the top 6, which is what we should be with everything considered. This is a good season so far based on the fact that last season when our last manager was sacked, we were below clubs such as Swansea, West Ham, Southampton and Stoke. The season before that, we finished below Swansea, Southampton, Stoke and Palace. To bring us back to where we're expected to be within 6 months of the season is impressive.
2. We're playing quite a few youngsters and across the media this has been picked up. The fact is that we're giving youth more game time than any other team in the league.
3. Our hugely leaky defence of the past couple of seasons has now turned very hard to break down.
4. Players are no longer guaranteed a place in the team regardless of their performances. Koeman has shipped out/is shipping out all of the deadwood and with the help of Walsh, improving the squad each window.
5. It's looking very likely that we'll get into Europe. I know you think this is a negative, but it's key for attracting players, improving our brand, and also those amazing European away days.

It's fine to be cautious, but the obvious negativity you have towards Koeman is unfair based on his performance this season.

Also, it's refreshing to hear a manager who can give his honest assessment of things. Foundationless praise gets you nowhere in football.

Did you miss this from earlier mate? (I hate to quote myself, but it might save time replying to your post up there).

Look, I have no interest in falling out with others over Koeman. I've readily admitted that I dont like the feller and I see him falling short of being what I call Everton class in terms of his conduct here so far, but I've been very realistic and fair in any assessment of what we should demand from him this season and the following ones.

• The recent upturn results are to be welcomed. They offer a glimpse of what might be (though tempered by a nagging doubt that the players themselves are in 'non-pressurised' mode and that's had an effect too)

• Similarly the upturn in performance is noted. These players are not the wastrels that many were all too eager to portray them as. They can play - no question of that. The general standard of play all season has been pretty dire, so anything like the last three weeks or so is encouraging.

• His purchases look to be ok for the most part. Gueye especially so, he is doing exactly what McCarthy did in his first season - giving us a presence and energy in midfield. Lookman looks like he has good potential. Schneiderlin is good (but not a crucial buy for us, imo). His purchase of Bolasie looks a terrible waste of funds though.

• The early exits in the cup are a big negative because they not only take away our dreams for another season, they also take away pressure and competition amongst the squad for a first team place. That needs a big improvement on next season.

• We're 7th and looking like we'll show a clean pair of heels to the other teams chasing an outside European place in behind the pack of six ahead. It's important we emerge out of that ruck of mediocrity and we are doing so. That is a big merit that goes to Koeman. That wont be enough next season though.

FWIW that's where I stand on Koeman, and I think it's a lot healthier than handing him a free pass to say or do what he pleases or achieve/underachieve how he wants - which seem to be at the heart of some posters views on him. Never ever forget this feller is lucky to be here at Everton, it's NOT the other way around.

As you can see I dont have the black and white approach to Koeman that you and others believe.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Leicester showed that the combination of a good manager, the right tactical system, and quality players can lead to success. Of course you increase your chances of all three by spending more money on top managers and players but that does not mean there is no chance of achieving it without dropping a quarter of a billion on the team. Leicester are proof of that. If Koeman is a top manager and Walsh helps him get top players, regardless of the fees we're spending, then we'll have a chance at success simple as that.

 

[Tony Hibbert's 3rd leg]

Sort of agree with this.

The last time we stacked up enough points that could and should have been enough ordinarily to grab a top 3 place never mind a top 4 spot we suffered because 4 teams above were so resilient. Arsenal were rocking at one point but then put clear daylight between us. So that is another factor: the performance of the elites. What isn't out of the question though is for us to run up that total again and see if the elites can claw us back in.

Lack of 'big signings' ultimately made us fall at the last hurdle. I hate always using Spurs as a comparison for everything, but that's why they probably won't win anything substantial unless they go out and buy a few world class players to add to what they have. Same reason Liverpool won't win the league. United, City Chelsea are way ahead in pulling power.

I think we'll join the party next season and it will be a competitive top 7. Smart recruitment and effective management can get us there. Increased expenditure in players and wages are required if we want to firstly remain competitive and secondly start winning silverware.